CEP 11: EXPLORING DIGITAL DISCIPLESHIP (BONUS EPISODE)
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger & guest Paul Benger
Welcome to Episode: 11 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Join us for this bonus episode that was recorded for the Ground Level Network as we explore digital discipleship.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Nathan Benger 0:00
Today we're going to be exploring digital discipleship. And we've called it exploring digital discipleship, because we've all been exploring digital this lap discipleship over this past season. I guess to start with, we can answer the question, what is discipleship? And why is it important?
Paul Benger 0:21
Yeah. Well, I mean, simply said, I think discipleship is, is formation into the likeness of Jesus growing people to become more like Jesus. And we could also say, it's been apprenticed in the way of following Jesus as well. And that the gospel actually births us into this new kingdom, that it restores these four relationships, I believe the gospel is not just about our relationship with God, which is, but also our relationship with ourselves, relationship with others, and our relationship with the world. And so it's being formed into the likeness of Jesus in the context of those four relationships.
David Mckeown 1:03
So let's try and explore that a little bit. What? What do we think how does that happen? Actually, you know, how to hire people formed into the likeness of Jesus? Yeah, well,
Paul Benger 1:13
I think I think that's the process isn't it of being a disciple and, and the best word we have disciples, we've not got a great is not a great word for what that is. And, and that's part I guess, of the challenge of understanding discipleship. The best word we've got is an apprentice Yeah. where someone is taught by somebody else. That's apprenticing where somebody who knows how to, you know, conduct themselves or do something in a particular area, teaches somebody else watches them as they make mistakes and develop and grow. And so that whole process, that journey of ongoing development happens through people connecting together.
Nathan Benger 1:57
I guess an important thing to recognise with that as well, in terms of somebody following somebody else, or, you know, Paul said, Follow follow me as I follow Christ. Yeah. But we talk about those four relationships, God, others self and the world, that there are, we can be discipled by multiple people in different areas,
David Mckeown 2:19
or every with our different things. Yeah. I think I think he's going to pick up on that. And even when it comes to coaching or discipleship, people often say, well, I'll have a coach for this area of my life, one aspect and another area. And I think that's true to say that, it's, it's good to think, well, you just don't need one person to disciple you, you need a mixture of people. monju Yeah, it's very happy along.
Paul Benger 2:41
And personally, I found that there's been seasons as well, or periods of my life where someone who has had a huge influence, you know, sort of, let's say, the main influence in my life, I mean, for me, when I first became a Christian, that was my Pastor in my local Church, and for, you know, however many years at least, at least 1012 years, his influence and his example, and his training was the main influence, but then as as life moves on other people, you know, role shift and people, you are discipled by different people in different areas. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Nathan Benger 3:19
So is there a lack of discipleship in the Church today? Yeah,
Paul Benger 3:24
I think we would say yes. And we would also say there is discipleship happening. Yeah. I mean, one of the things, obviously, we don't want to talk too much about the pandemic, because we think, I think that's a bad thing to talk too much about it. But one of the things that did highlight was almost this sense of panic in the Church, that, oh, if if Christians are just consuming our content, yeah. If they're just showing up, because they're like, I'm using, like our services as they like the community, if they're just consuming what's on offer, then they're not going to last and they're not going to go forward. But if they're disciples of Jesus, and we've made disciples of Jesus, and also that happens, not through through people through the interaction, then they'll last whatever happens, just like we have the Church has for 2000 years. And so there was this, there was this panic, what where's the level of our discipleship at in that? And I think also, if we're saying, yes, there is a lack of discipleship, I would say in some of those areas we mentioned too, I think we've got strong discipleship, ideas about how do we disciple somebody in their relationship with God? You know, you attend Church, you worship, you read your Bible, you pray, yeah, you get in a small group, you know that that often is very godward. But Have we got any systems any ways that we disciple people in their relationship with one another, and their relationship with themselves and their relationship with their world, maybe were weak in some of those areas.
David Mckeown 5:00
It means good just to think through this idea that actually people did panic a little bit, didn't they? Yeah, they see, you know, had discipleship gone down where people want to turn up. But I think on the whole, what we've experienced is actually people have turned up. And they've been, they have been more than consumers. I think maybe in some cultures, that idea of being a consumer is much more real. Yeah. Then maybe in the UK, I think I think our experiences certainly at IKON Church, and maybe other tours are find the same, that people have turned up. You know, by and large, haven't they stay connected, stayed connected to stayed? You know, even if we say they've stayed giving, they've stayed part of all our worry, even all that stuff. People were panicking about, weren't they from giving right through. But I think one of the things that has highlighted Actually, there is a level of commitment to the cause people are connected to Jesus, therefore, I think they're going to turn up. Yeah, more than what they would have thought was some other cause.
Nathan Benger 5:55
Yeah, yeah. And I think you were mentioning those, you know, those areas and those four areas that we've we've kind of highlighted, you know, God, or the self and the world. And I think, you know, even just through the past year, we've seen that, yeah, maybe we've been good at discipling people towards God. But you've seen in instances in culture, money in people's lives, the lack of discipleship towards others, towards self and towards the world. And those things. So we're talking digital design, which really is like online. Yeah, yeah. Zoom means on your phone, whatever you want messaging, all of the social media. So here's a question is digital discipleship. Real discipleship?
David Mckeown 6:47
No. It's a big discussion, though. Yeah, I think aspects of it are real. Yes. Personally, I think a lot of it, you can see you can do a lot of training, I think, online. And you can learn a lot. But you're still missing the human touch charger. And you need the human touch for discipleship, not just divine touch. Of course, it is live as well. But there's something about this interaction. So is it real? It is real? Is it working? It is working? Yeah. But what would you choose if you had an option?
Paul Benger 7:20
Yeah. That's a good question. As I as I was thinking about this, I was thinking, well, how did Jesus disciple people? And I think there's some things you can do online? Yeah. And then there's some things you need that life on life. Yeah. And so I was thinking while Jesus taught, taught the disciples, and that's how we disciple people, don't we, you know, we've gathered together we open the scriptures, and hopefully, we're preaching messages that are relevant to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, not just to Sunday. Yeah. And so that's discipleship. Here's how to live, here's how to respond. And you can do that you can do that online, you can have that communication, you can have that understanding on that. But then when you watch the life of Jesus discipleship happened, as they ask questions, well, what did you mean about that? Now, we don't do as much of that online now you can do that online. You we share in one example of that, this morning.
Nathan Benger 8:17
Yeah. So like, we were just doing like a, you know, the youversion Bible app. We're not sponsored by them, by the way, I think, to this day, but like we were doing an on there, you have this moment, after each day, where you can put comments, and we had one of our young leaders, we were just going through a Bible reading plan, who would just ask questions after that. And we'd send back the answers. And rather than having to me, and do that, it was a simple way of that being accessible. And I think I think it's important to recognise this one, our young leaders, that future generations online is real ly Yeah. And this is how they're interacting with each other. So they're, you know, like you. And you know, as leaders, you might be in 20, Whatsapp groups, while most young people are probably in about 60, Whatsapp groups, plus them, they've got their Facebook messaging groups, they're in these groups and all the time they're messaging. And I think, if we can get the mix where I think we're right in the fact of there is moments where it needs the human touch. But what a great opportunity to be able to be in somebody's life. Like every day, yeah, even if it's just one message every day, we get to have that touch with somebody.
Paul Benger 9:38
Yeah, we'll come back. We'll come back to that and the amount people are online, but but again, going back to Jesus, so the you know, there's obviously the teaching, which we can do online, there's the questions, which I think is the questions and the interaction of what does that mean, which I think doesn't happen a lot. But if we could do more of that would help our does digital design. Yep. But then there's the filter of an example. And this is the, this is the bit that Jean that, that the disciples were able to watch how Jesus applied his own teaching. And they were able to understand the teaching of Jesus because they saw that personal, and they had that interaction. And in that interaction, there was encouragement, he sends that, let's say, he sends out the 72. You go and do what I've done, you can do it is that encouragement? And we'll talk about it when you come
David Mckeown 10:35
back. Your feedback model as well. Yeah,
Paul Benger 10:38
brilliant feedback. But then there's the rebuke. You know, Peter, I don't I don't want you to think like this. Get behind Me, Satan.
Nathan Benger 10:45
Yeah, that's not the way to think about this. So hard to do that. Could you imagine receiving that in a text message or
Paul Benger 10:51
WhatsApp if you were to close down some WhatsApp groups? Because they were doing some stuff? But But yeah, so. So there's a lot I think, in terms of pairs, because discipleship journey, and that's the thing to understand. discipleship is a journey. So you can move people online towards Christ. And following Jesus. Yeah. But then, I think, if I was to frame it, I the thing that people need is a physical incarnational example that they can follow. You quoted, Paul, follow me. Yeah, as I follow quiet Christ, he's saying, you know, I'm trying to follow Jesus. And I think in this way, I'm acting this way, I'm responding this way. And we need that. And we also need that through imperfect humans. You know, I know, in my life, there have been so many people that have rubbed shoulders with and come close to, and I've actually thought they think about that differently to me. And that's, that's been a challenge and helped me grow. So, so yeah, I think it's, I think, a little bit of a mix,
David Mckeown 12:03
and some some real progress isn't there with digital discipleship have made me think of some of the pros that, that that are there, you know, it's easily accessible, you know, people can connect, you know, any time of the day, you know, wider audience catchment, you can reach people, you know, disabled people across the world where, you know, they had to be so direct, there is pros. I mean, there's quite a few others. We have their own list, you know what I mean? Yeah, Chip into that.
Nathan Benger 12:27
Yeah. I mean, you know, like, he, you know, it's they're accessible. I was just even thinking our small groups have become more accessible for people, for people who've got families. Yeah. So usually, somebody would, you know, what one parent might stay at home, with the kids putting them to bed, whereas the other might go to connect, and they might alternate that we see that in our Church, people would alternate Yeah, can go this week, you go next week, whereas is online? Yeah, they're just putting the kids to bed, they'll be 10 minutes. And then they're in the small group. And so it, you know, there's that, you know, kind of, like, easily accessible, it's, it's there for them.
David Mckeown 13:11
So more more touch points in one sense. Yeah. You know, you said earlier, because, like, if he can get stuff out to people once a day, and people are supposed to see engagement in that as well, but it does give us some more touch points for people. So there is real benefits. I think, you know, in the digital world, we can't, it's not going anywhere, it's here to stay
Paul Benger 13:32
is no real. I hired a statistic, actually, just this last week, that people are reading 27 minutes of content per day, on Instagram, while 27 minutes on just on Instagram. And they're reading 11 minutes of content from everywhere else. 2727 on Instagram, 11, from books, newspapers anywhere else, you know, and that's that person. So people are being discipled. Online. And actually, the online environment is geared to disciple people. So, like, how many adverts Do you see a day? Yeah. And that's people, disciples, disciple in us in consumerism, and chasing commodities. You know, and so some somebody is wanting to shape us into the image of consumers. Yeah. I mean, lots of people, not just a somebody, a one person. But actually,
Nathan Benger 14:39
I think it's a tool that we've got to use even better than we've learned to shape people into the image of Jesus. You've asked actually, or you said a phrase or you've asked the question of our Church. Are we being discipled by the world, or are we being discipled by Jesus? Great question. And I think This is really important to recognise in digital discipleship, because it's very easy to be discipled by the world. Yeah, rather than by Jesus. Yeah. You know, like, you know, you can say, like, who you listen to most, yeah. Is who you'll become like, or your thoughts or become like that. And, you know, 27 minutes worth of content read on Instagram. That's who you're listening to most the loudest voice? Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, even just talking to the people who are listening, maybe it's a question we have to ask ourselves, I know, I have to ask myself, who might been discipled? By? Is it the world? Or am I being intentional about who I'm being discipled? By who I'm listening to who are the voices that are speaking into my life? I think, firstly, like, is a good place to start and myself. But then also helping our churches and helping them realise that yes, social media is here to stay is going to be around online is going to be here to stay. But let's use it wisely. Yeah, I think is a discipleship moment in itself. Have you couldn't get this up by the world? Yeah. Who are you listening to one of those voices.
Paul Benger 16:20
And I think understanding this is the starting place. So you've got to understand that that stuff that we're consuming, as we scroll our screens, is shaping us just decide discipling us elaborately deliberately, in many cases, but then also the algorithms. So when, when you like a series of things, the algorithms behind all of that technology are going to show you more of what you like, and more of what you love. So eventually, you're just talking to yourself,
Nathan Benger 16:53
I'll say, it's interesting, because this just comes about because I say to like some of our young people, and some of our young adults, I'll say, you need to get around people who are not just going to tell you what you want to hear, they're going to tell you what you need to hear. Social media is just going to tell you what you want to hear. Yeah. And he's gonna point you to that.
David Mckeown 17:12
But again, we can harness that. And we can because we've got our people in our setting, you know, they're online, they're watching right stuff. They are those algorithms, whether we like it or not, are going to push similar content their way. Yes. So it can work to your advantage. And when we are supposed to come up with that idea, how do we harness that? As as followers of Jesus, what do we do to harness that? Because it's like, it's not going anywhere. So we've got to do something with it. We don't ignore it. We've got some high harness and use what's out there, because I think Jesus would have done the same wouldn't they would
Paul Benger 17:48
Yeah. And I think one of the, I think the things one of the things we've got to help people understand is Jesus is not always going to agree with you. Yeah. discipleship often is the reforming and or the reshaping, and is going to change your mindset is going to change how you think about things. And if you're not being challenged and transformed and changed, you're probably not being discipled by Jesus, you're like, you're actually being discipled by the people you agree with Yeah, and you just get in more sucked in. So when push comes to shove you'll make choices based on that discipleship, not the following of Jesus. And and so we need people to understand that that actually that that come that conflict, it's not really conflict, it's a shift in perspective and mindset is actually shaping us into the image of Christ.
David Mckeown 18:43
I mean, I like the the agent we've talked about in different contexts, sort of discipleship is rubbing against one another and rubbing off on each other. Yeah, and I think you need that in real life because you need Yeah, the online stuff but you need to connect with people so that actually they can rob you up the wrong way. Yeah, that's when you're disabled. Someone triggers here Yeah, that's when patients comes in. Well, you don't need patients of your own your own domain. Yeah, you need real life people who are going to trigger you sometimes not that that's an invitation. You need people in your face a little bit, too so there is that robbing? Yes. And there is that building together as we also the space for it.
Nathan Benger 19:27
Yeah. And I think we found some things have been successful for us as IKON Church you for just highlight a few things for like alpha course. Oh, yeah. Online has been a huge success for us. In the fact of, you know, like when I say to someone, hey, there's a 12 week course you can do about exploring Christianity. It's like 12 weeks, like, lay that lights, three months. Yeah. But actually online, we've seen that retention rate on that. Yeah. Really high? And probably higher than in that room? Yeah, yeah. And so that's been a success. Our small groups. Yeah. They've grown. Attendance has grown in that people connecting with that. Yeah. Just thinking even of our leadership meetings, yeah. They've become more accessible. Yeah. For people unable to do that. And, you know, I'd encourage people don't just, like, have a look how to run an online meeting. Yeah. Because don't just try it. Yeah, but do that. So we've had some successes, but also there are challenges. Yeah. behind that, you know, you mentioned like, you know, Robin, you know, Robin up against each other. Well, if you wrote me up the wrong way, on a on a zoom, I'm going to leave meeting or I'm just going to
Paul Benger 20:49
how snooze, snooze you for 30 days, or whatever it is. Yeah.
David Mckeown 20:54
Yeah, you know, goes on forever. I mean, there is there is some challenges with digital discipleship, we've got to be real with that as well. Like, I just commented that, like, people, I suppose, can hide behind a screen. It's easy, isn't it? You know, like, if someone's talking about an issue, and somebody on the other side doesn't like it. It's, you know, they can just switch off the screen quiet. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. It's harder to do that in a group setting. Yeah. You know, so there is challenges there. Really? What are the other challenges? We think there is?
Nathan Benger 21:26
Well, we we've got the verse that laying on of hands, yeah. Yeah, pastoral aspect
Paul Benger 21:34
of it. Being able to do that, although on Sunday, we had a show on Sunday, at the end of the service, with, we felt we felt to pray for people. We just said, like, you know, lay hands on yourself, obviously, or if there's somebody with us in your bubble, get them to lay hands on you, we had, you know, a wife laid hands on her husband and her husband's suffering from arthritis. And for over a year hadn't been able to clench his fist. And then we got a message Sunday afternoon that his hand had been healed. And then he sent me an email and a photograph of him clenching his fist on Monday morning. So, you know, I think I think the the issue is to think about what are the elements of discipleship like we've talked? What what are the elements of discipleship? What can you do online? And what what can you not fully do online? What are the bits that you actually need? The the physical, the interaction with people, but you situation
Nathan Benger 22:44
like, so, in your message on because you spoke on Sunday? In your message? You said, the you know, you framed it if you're in a bubble, yeah, no, get somebody to lay hands. You know, and you kind of alluded to the whole thing. Um, you know, like, we miss this. Yeah. But it's also a moment to be creative. Yeah. And to equip the people equip the Church to like, hey, it's not just down to the Pastor or the lead at No, no, you're in your home. This can happen
Paul Benger 23:15
if you're on your own lay hands on yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, I think there is a lot of physicality about our faith. Jesus didn't wait till the zoom technology was in to come He came physically. And the incarnate and the Incarnation we take bread and wine as physical elements, which we won't get into all the theology of that but for me the physicality of
David Mckeown 23:42
that is it to me when you said
Paul Benger 23:45
no, I didn't think you were gonna go for it. But I do think is the physicality of that the lane, on the lane on a van. You know, there's another verse greet one another with a holy kiss. We, we we tend to miss out the kiss, but we hope people don't we and we, in Christian community, if that if that puts you off then like, you know, we don't worry, I will do
Nathan Benger 24:06
a high five.
Paul Benger 24:07
We do high fives. Yeah, we start with high fives, elbows. But but there's a lot of physicality around our faith, because we're we're wired that way. And I think so here's, here's something I read. And I understand that a baby, just a small child, human baby can actually tell the difference. If it sees a parent on a screen or per parent in person, even without the physical touching person, it knows if the parent is in the room. And and that matters more. So there are elements that where we need that that physicality. However, I'm quite positive about the fact of what we can do. I think you're true. And I think we just need to think through a little bit more like the discussion like that. Amen. So I think that there's that like the, the challenge, where can we have robust conversation? You know, some of the stuff that perhaps doesn't happen as much online that's involved in descibes? Yeah. Are there ways that we can? That's why we're exploring because we absolutely just asking the questions aren't unlike everyone else?
David Mckeown 25:17
Yeah, definitely. And I think there is something powerful about the the genius of the arm, you know, like you mentioned something, they're just picking up on that idea of the gaps. Yeah. So there is some things that digital disabled chip will miss. But equally, there's a lot we can gain. Yes. So I think obviously, as we're exploring this idea of digital discipleship, there's spaces for both. And I don't know, I think it would be a big struggle to not use digital discipleship, because that's the way we're going. Yeah, definitely, there's got to be something there where we recognise the gaps, people recognise the gaps. But just because there's gaps doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. And I think if people aren't careful, they'll say, well, it's missing this is missing that, therefore, it's not real. Yeah, dismiss it and dismiss it. And maybe that's just a bad way to look at it.
Paul Benger 26:08
While making you mentioned alpha, but obviously, we're exploring further later in the year. What else can we do online? That actually could work at least as well, or even better than in the room things like the marriage course. You know, think things like courses on the Holy Spirit and baptism in the spirit, where the access people don't have to travel? So you know, you took out 2030 minutes of travel, minimum for people, maybe an hour's travel,
David Mckeown 26:38
and that's locally, but also globally? Yes. Yeah. People weren't connecting and couldn't.
Paul Benger 26:44
So so we're thinking through either other things that we could try and explore. Does that work digitally to move people towards Christ to move people further on? And then the other thing I think, I think this is the big win, is the four year of the Church has moved. Yeah, I agree. So like, if I was to look back at the last 15 years of our Church, I would say the foyer of our Church was our website 15 years ago, then it became our podcast, people were listening. And it became my YouTube channel. That was the foyer. This is for people locally. And at the same time, we built a huge in our building. In Chesterfield, we had a huge physical, because we wanted people to have pre and post service bows. But the foyer now as just removed right out into the community into the world. So we find people like connecting with us watching with us. You know, we like we had one couple watched our services for six weeks, before they even thought about showing at our building, and so that our four year is right out there now. So reach out potential reach to start a relationship with people and then start to move them towards Christ has only increased,
David Mckeown 28:06
it got better. I'm just thinking of that story. I mean, there was another story of our campus and Stocksbridge Stocksbridge. Somebody was going past the buildings, seeing the sign. Yeah. And then went online. So I mean, I think they would have went online, even if we had a physical Yeah, service. At that point. They would have went on how to look explored that done all the exploring online before they even get to the thing. And that's a win for the Church. Really? Yeah.
Paul Benger 28:33
And that person by led to the service on the Sunday online online. I've been joined alpha straightaway on the Monday. Yeah. And this Sunday, after this recording, we won't. We'll actually physically for the first time Church be in the building.
Nathan Benger 28:49
Yeah. And like, just to kind of wrap it up and wrap up the story as well. They were three weeks late on alpha, because of online, one of our great people on the Alpha Team spend time with x return line. Yeah. So he didn't have to physically travel. Let's go to No, we'll do our online and caught them up. So they were in that place. And so, like we've said, digital discipleship is here to stay. Yeah. I think we've also said there has to be some element of personal connection. Yeah. And I don't think it's either or, I think the future is, and yeah, and I think for any Church leader out there, it's, you know, like us, we're exploring what is online? And what is in person, what's better online, and what's better in person. And that might mean hey, we're just going to try something we're going to try. You know, we just tried the alpha course online. Yeah, we're just going to try something online to do that. Any final thoughts, comments before we finish? Now? I
Paul Benger 29:49
think we're exploring digital discipleship, and I think we're gonna uncover some things that we can do better To move people towards becoming more like Christ and some things online that we can do better, and some things will be a hybrid, you know, as well,
David Mckeown 30:09
yeah, no, that's where I was on my mind that this idea that's going to be a hybrid. Yeah. And we got to be willing to accept that, you know, not not be frightened by that hybrid model. It's there to stay and we've I think people have just got to embrace it. That would be my take on it. Great.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
