CEP SEASON TWO EP:06 - WITH GUEST JONATHAN MOYNIHAN
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Welcome to Season 2 Episode: 06 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Join us for part ONE of the show, where you will hear Jonathan Moynihan share his leadership story and why he has moved from mayhem and metrics to embracing silence, stillness and sabbath. Discover why this has made him a more robust and healthier leader.
Some interesting things about Jonathan are -
He is a former journalist, now a pastor and a podcaster located near Washington DC and Baltimore in the U.S.
He also is a longtime fan of European football; he loves good coffee and helping people walk faithfully with Jesus in cultures hostile to the ways and teachings of Jesus.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Created by AI so not perfect but good.
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to prove your leadership and build your Church Hey, I'm Dave McKeown
Nathan Benger 0:14
and I'm Nathan Benger.
David Mckeown 0:16
And we're the hosts of the church explained podcast. Welcome today to our podcast. We've got a very special guest, a guy by the name of
Nathan Benger 0:24
Jonathan Moynihan. How's that? How's that? How's that pronunciation?
Jonathan Moynihan 0:31
The American Way is Moynahan, but David was teaching me that it's more like Monahan.
David Mckeown 0:35
Yeah, that that that is correct. It's Monahan. So I'll teach how to say your name properly. Nathan today, so, hey, welcome to Jonathan Monahan to the show today. So just a little bit about Jonathan. Uh, he is a former journalist, a Pastor, a podcaster, located near Washington, DC, and Baltimore in the US, is a long term football fan, European football, we've just been discovering. He loves good coffee, and helping people walking faithfully with Jesus and cultures that are hostile to the ways and teachings of Jesus. I think we'll pick that up as we go. Yeah, definitely. So hey, welcome to the show, Jonathan.
Jonathan Moynihan 1:17
Man, blessings honoured to be here with you guys. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a conversation with you.
Nathan Benger 1:23
Now, it's great to have you. Jonathan, why don't you just give us a little bit of something else about your background, maybe family location, leadership role, and maybe even mentioned Saturday morning Sabbath with your girls watching football? Yeah, man.
Jonathan Moynihan 1:40
Yeah. So like David said, I'm from outside of Baltimore. I grew up on the west side of the city. And my family and I moved out into the suburbs, which is just a very dense suburban context between DC and Baltimore. I currently serve in the role as a teaching minister at the Church that I work at called Mosaic, Christian Church. I'm sort of like the associate Pastor number two there. And yeah, I've been at the Church for a little over 10 years, I've been on staff for nine and a half been doing part time or full time ministry for the better part of 14 years. But yeah, my wife, Stephanie, she's been there for the ride from the transition from journalism into ministry. And then I've got three children under the age of five. So things are a bit crazy for me. But yeah, and then part of the way they kind of come into my love for football is part of our Sabbath rhythms as we slowly disconnect from things on Friday nights. And then I let my wife I encourage her to sleep in on Sabbath days, and I get the kids and we kind of have the English Premier League on Saturday mornings, and I'll make some coffee, and they'll have some waffles. And we'll sit there and they basically understand the goal is to get the ball into the net. But that's about it. I'm slowly teaching them that it's called a pitch, not a field, but we'll get there.
Nathan Benger 2:51
Yeah, it's great.
David Mckeown 2:54
Yeah, it sounds pretty amazing. And one of the things you've mentioned there, Jonathan, is around your Sabbath practice. And I think we'll pick that up as we go. Because some of that idea may be new to some, some of our listeners, this idea of, you know, what does that look like? So maybe we pick that up? Before we go, I'd love to pick up maybe just one line, if IKON in your bio, which is this idea of, you know, working faithfully and with Jesus, and cultures and teaching people that are hostile, hostile to the ways of Jesus, you want to say some more about that?
Jonathan Moynihan 3:29
Yeah. I think for a long time, and you guys are in Europe. So you've always been about probably a generational step ahead of America, America tends to be behind you. Well, when it comes to faith, religion, culture, in a lot of ways, I think the secularism of Europe bleeds over into the West, and you guys are part of the West. But you know what I'm saying. And so, all I mean, when I say that is typically, for a long time, the teachings of Jesus have been slowly but surely been poked and prodded at from Western secularism, you know, pluralism, where, or more relativity where everybody has their own way. So the claims of Jesus and His exclusivity as the way to God are the way to peace and the way to freedom. Those claims have been poked out for a long time. But in addition, now we're seeing a greater emphasis on, I would say, cultures hostility towards the practices of Jesus, and what I mean is even like, the pace in which he lived, the volume that he lived, the way he handled relationships, how he let people in and out of his life, the way he acted as a minister of deeply engaging with the father in isolation for a while and then engaging with the people that he was trying to serve and minister to, I think, for a long time in secularism, and, you know, sort of post Christian context, the teachings of Jesus have been, you know, a point of friction, but now I think the way of Jesus the way he lives with our digital culture, the people So much we live our life, the expectations of Pastor have gotten so big that I think imitating the way Jesus lived in a modern ministry context is just getting increasingly difficult. So I'm really passionate not just about teaching people the words of Jesus, but helping them figure out, how do I live the way he did, because ultimately, that's what apprenticeship looks like, not just knowing what he said, but actually modelling the way he lives.
Nathan Benger 5:23
That's great. And, yeah, some great thoughts. I love that, you know, that phrase that we use in the ways of Jesus, and I wondered if you just kind of explore maybe some of the shifts for you, as a leader in the last two years in terms of practice in the ways of Jesus, and also explaining why you made those decisions.
Jonathan Moynihan 5:44
Yeah, I would preface it by saying some of these shifts occurred for me through some brokenness in my life in 2017 2018 2019. But they were certainly accelerated during the pandemic, I think we'd all agree that COVID And just the cultural moment that was 2020, sort of heightened things, you know, you know, race conversations in America and bled all over the world, politics, the partisanship of America has bled all over the world. And so, you know, I wouldn't say that 2020, it all began there, I would just say it, it got accelerated to a new extreme. But I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that what I just talked about the not just the teachings of Jesus, but the way of Jesus, some of those things started, some of the pillars of my faith started to not deconstruct but were exposed for being faulty, in like a season of life between 2018 to 2019. And, you know, my identity being rooted in the metrics of ministry, my validation as a Pastor being rooted in how well something is growing or not growing like all of these unhealthy sort of integrations of identity and calling, really started to get exposed for how toxic they were in 2018 2019. So when 2020 hit, and all the ways that typical pastors can validate themselves and their ministry and God's blessing on their life, all we were stripped of all those things. And so it was just this epic exposure of some of the faulty faith practices or ways that we measured efficacy in ministry. And so for me over the last two years, basically how I minister and the way I, which I present myself as a shepherd, had shifted dramatically, a little bit prior to the pandemic, and just the need for that increased more and more. And so instead of coming from this place, I'm your typical like, Enneagram, seven, charismatic, rah, rah, high energy person who was always big like rallying the group getting the bonuses Ready, and go, go, go. And now coming out of these last several years, I would say I'm, I think people describe me as a minister who operates from contemplation, and quiet presence and prayer far more than like coming up with what the next big leadership, hot topics are, or zingers is what we call him or Treatibles. You know, like trying to say the right things that make things stick. And so in our hurried, you know, manic, metric obsessed life of being a minister. I've really just found the spiritual disciplines of solitude and making silence a big part of my life, Bible memorization, and really reshaping how I view prayer. It's really operating from like a hurried state to a contemplative state, that's really been the biggest shift for me. So in short, that's been I think that's an answer to your question. I got a little sidetracked there.
David Mckeown 8:41
No, no great, great, great answers there. And I just want to we can pick up on a few bits that you've said, and maybe Ryan, the thing I was thinking about was, obviously, it's been a big change for you, in your approach to living the ways of Jesus, but I was sort of thinking those around you then in your Church, because you've been there for, as you say, 10 years? Have they noticed the difference between what you were before? And where you are? And I?
Jonathan Moynihan 9:10
I'm sorry, you so you're asking, what are the ways that they've noticed?
David Mckeown 9:12
Yeah, yeah. So how have they noticed? Because obviously been a shift for you internally. But have they have those around, you know,
Jonathan Moynihan 9:19
the people who notice first were my staff, you know, I lead about six full time staff or team is 14, and I'm directly responsible for six of them. And so some of the things that they noticed was, I was just slower to speak. And I think out of the overflow of learning how to listen to God, we learn how to listen to others well, and we even look for moments to see the divine in our small interactions with other people. And so learning to be still in silent with God became a major factor of my own spiritual formation and disciplines, which then in turn makes it so I listen a lot more. And I'm a talker, like I'm a teaching minister. I lead our team. They come to me with questions. I try to give answers but Seeing how powerful not speaking is with the father became a way in which my solitude overflowed into my leadership. And so my staff first and foremost would tell you, John, I think they would say, it's not that I don't have much to say it's just I'm more selective in what I say. So that when I say something, it goes even further. And then also, in my preaching, that's been another big one of, you know, I'm that type of guy who loves illustrations, and I love using props and all those things. But I think out of the overflow of this new centeredness, with Jesus coming out of just my metric space ministry, seeing how fickle and incomplete that was, I have, I no longer put the weight on me, of really saving people. And I really put it where it belongs, which is with the Spirit of God. And I still put in about 20 to 25 hours into my message, I manuscript it, it goes up on a teleprompter, I work my tail off, I know exactly what I'm going to say. But I step into that with greater spiritual authority, I think because I'm not giving myself a pat on the back of five people check the box to get baptised. And I'm not beating myself up, if I get five pieces of critical feedback, because I know I'm being faithful to the spirit, I'm being faithful to Jesus. And by no means do, I think I'm perfect. But I think the biggest areas have been this phrase in psychology called differentiation, when you no longer are basing your own identity on the whim of other people and what they think about you, it's sort of operating in a secured state of being in a state of presence. And I think the best thing ministers can bring to their congregation is being a non anxious presence in times of anxiety. And I think my staff saw me be that during the pandemic, not because I'm better than anybody, but just because my brokenness had occurred prior, like God had fractured my identity and expose some things. And so just being a non anxious presence in a time of anxiety, there's even like some ways in which I've tried to function as a spiritual director for my staff a little bit. And so I think that's the biggest thing is just not spouting off all the same anxiety points. You know, I still get anxious, we still have lots of things that aren't perfect in our ministry. But being a non anxious presence, I think we overlook how significant that is. And if we're doing that just sort of human striving, it'll eat you alive. You know, it'll, you'll be internalising all that energy, instead of living out of the overflow of quiet time with the Father. That's just been my lifeline, you'll I noticed a difference in my leadership when I am sort of dwelling and abiding in the presence of God. And I'm not I don't come in a charismatic tradition. So I'm not talking about some Pentecostal stuff. I just mean sitting and being quiet like Thomas Merton. Henry now talks about, but that's been the big area. I think that's what that's what they'd say, I think John is far more slow to speak more contemplative and more prayerful than we've noticed over the previous eight years.
Nathan Benger 12:57
Wow. I love that. I love that line. You just said a non anxious presence in anxious society, I think that's a great line. You mentioned something as you were talking earlier, around, kind of like spiritual practices, or even, you know, like, the way you know, practising the way of Jesus or following Jesus in that it become faulty. And then you use this phrasing in the construct, but you realised it was faulty. And I guess for a lot of people, when they see it's faulty, they begin to deconstruct and so I just wanted to ask the question, How did you do that healthily. So you didn't, you know, you didn't deconstruct your whole faith, or you didn't deconstruct your relationship with Jesus so much that it, you know, harmed it in a sense?
Jonathan Moynihan 13:43
Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, just to be real honest, I think part of it was my livelihood depended was dependent on me being in ministry, you know, like my retirement, my salary. So it's different for me. And also just the community I was in. It was for me, when, when I started to see ministry not grow the way I wanted, my answer wasn't okay, something's wrong with Jesus, it was something's wrong with me. And so I think a lot of the times when people deconstruct, there's such this elevated sense of self that we have to be true to ourselves and true to like those inner thoughts and impulses, that we almost prop up our own sense of being in humanity as like the ultimate God. And so when the deities we've been presented through Christianity no longer serve us, we put God aside instead of putting ourselves aside. And so in my instance, you know, the biblical worldview, I had strong community I had, you know, being rooted in Scripture. My impulse is always that when something goes wrong, it's not God. It's me. Like somehow I'm off and so I can't speak to every single moment of deconstruction, but for me, that's what kept me grounded. And so when I people would speak, my ministry wasn't growing the way I thought it would. And we were still baptising people. But it wasn't up into the right though a while I wanted attendance wasn't what I wanted. But people would speak over me scripture about God's love for me and how, you know, excited, he was about just who I am as a son of God. And I, in my head thought, that's a bunch of bull. Like, I couldn't believe my heart was so hardened, I could not receive encouragement of scripture of God's promises over my life. And so for me, I went to counselling for eight months, like every week or every other week, just to realise, where am I projecting onto my heavenly Father, a version of fatherhood, that I learned through the brokenness of my life, but it is not true of the God of Scripture. And so that just I think, it wasn't like, I'm humble, it was just, I just have a really high view of the Lord. And I've seen Jesus changed so many people's lives in my own life, my default is just assume something's wrong with me. And then, I think one of the big tensions of deconstruction is I, I didn't plan this, but we view we often view deconstruction as like an intellectual problem. But it's actually something that only gets solved through relationships. And so one of the tensions of deconstruction is people started seeing their their faith fall away, in the middle of a pandemic, when they were in isolation, and there were no relationships that could come alongside them. And what we see from Jesus with the two men on the on the road to Emmaus, I think that's I say, amaze. They they are, they are doubting like, they're walking Jesus is dead, they don't know. And Jesus draws near to them. And he almost reconciles what we would consider deconstruction, little through relationship, not intellectual bombardment. And so I benefited from being in community as people could almost believe, for me the promises of God over my life, while I myself was doubting them. And that covered me because I was in community and it kept me Okay, and so to the person to the leader, who maybe is doubting like the goodness of God or His blessing over their ministry, my my biggest caution would be, don't allow yourself to fall into digital discipleship or digital community be in physical, literal community, around people who can believe and speak those promises of God over you even when you don't believe them. Because I think looking back even processing with you now, that's what kept me solid, was I had men and women around me who just did not create space for an ounce of doubt about the love of God over my life to take root. So good.
David Mckeown 17:28
Yeah, great, great answer there and great insights as well, I think for lots of listening. You mean, you've shared a little bit about the brokenness? I just want to we could maybe explore that a little bit further of what caused up brokenness. I mean, you've shared a little bit of both what solved it for you. But I want to go to help some of our listeners to work out what caused that for you the brokenness to begin with.
Jonathan Moynihan 17:54
Yeah, I in the short version is I learned through therapy that I, I, in my ministry experience, I had never led a ministry that didn't explode and grow. And so I led a college ministry with no staff that God's like 350 400 kids. And then I went and launched a like, missionary team down in Orlando with an organisation I was a part of, and we were launching Bible studies, and it was great. And then I came on staff at our Church, and we were like, 190 people, and we doubled twice in two years. And we became a Church of like, 800. And then we launched the campus because we outgrew and I was the campus Pastor, and we had like a million dollars, we launched like 25 minutes down the road. And we launched with 500 people. And then two years in, we were a Church of 200 people. So I grew it from 500 to 200. And that failure, and by the way, we still baptised and so 73 people, repent of sin, put their faith in Jesus and become new in Christ over the span of those two and a half years. So how sick was I? That we saw 73 people give their life to Jesus, yet, I felt like a failure and thought the ministry was a fraud, and that God wasn't on didn't have my back and that I was a failure. Like, whenever people talked about the campus around me, I would weep, like in secret. And it was, I wept, not because I was sad, but because I was angry, which was the emotion that hid my depression and sadness. And so I noticed some people, you're like, you had a campus of 200 people and you're upset. Exactly. That shows how toxic I was, like I was so unhealthily integrated into the metrics of success. And like what I thought success was that I didn't know who I was as a Pastor, and I didn't, I couldn't look my volunteers in the eye and say, God is with us, unless we were hitting certain metrics, which were really fueled by our western corporate executive style of leadership. And I'm not against those things. The local Church needs the best leadership in the world. But I was just so unhealthy. And you know that coupled with realising that I viewed through counselling, I learned that I viewed God as a coach. And I played high level baseball in America to college that that was my life. And I realised I was projecting onto God, a coach mindset. And a coach Loves You When You're doing well, and isn't really proud of you when you strike out a bunch. But a father when he drives you home, after you strike out four times, you're still his son. But I was feeling God as a coach, not as a father. And I did sort of, excuse me peel back all those layers that my identity was built upon the sandy foundation of performance and metrics and optics and aesthetic, I even had to go to this like weekend intensive, where I realised, when I transitioned from a city school to a suburban school that had money, I was ridiculed because of how poor I was. And I learned, if I'm good at sports, and I'm charismatic, and I'm desirable by girls, I can blend in my wounding, or I can hide my wounding. And there's even some ways that ministry has sort of tickled that broken this because I can be good enough as a communicator, I can be desirable, I can be charismatic. And so all of this swirling together over the span of about two and a half years, coupled with trauma in my wife's side of the family that we had to navigate, all of it forced me to get brutally honest about do I believe that there's nothing I can do to make God love me more? And nothing I can do to make God loves me less? And out of that grace and that new foundation? Can I learn to just be with a father and lead from that place? Instead of feeling like I have to go do more? In the paradoxes when I've learned to do less with a father, I think God has blessed my ministry more. But it's not transactional, right? Like, there's no promise of that. But that's a little bit of like, what sent me down the rabbit hole of just pain and just broken this and isolation. And I think most pastors go through that at some point, when they realise this ministry is based on me, not on like, the blessing and gifting of God. So what do I do with that? And we either double down on the metrics we can control, or we actually surrender and give up control. And let God do what He only does.
Nathan Benger 22:12
Great, great. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, just, I think so helpful to people. And so thank you for being so open and honest about that. And I think would be super helpful. So just thinking about practising and implementing the ways of Jesus? What are some of the practical steps that you've taken into your life, family and ministry? What have been some of the challenges around it? Yeah, just dive into that.
Jonathan Moynihan 22:40
So there's a, there's a famous American novelist named David Foster Wallace, he took his own life A while ago, but he was like a really big cultural commentator, and he has this book that he turned into a commencement speech called what is water. And it's all based on this story of two young fish, swimming. And eventually, they come across an older fish. And the older fish sort of nods at them and says, morning, boys, how's the water, and then he swims on and the two young fish keep going for a while. And then eventually they look at one another, and they say, What the heck is water. And then they just keep going. And the whole premise of the story is, these two little fish are swimming in an environment that drastically shapes who they are and what they are, but they're completely unaware of it. And you know, the point of David Foster Wallace talking about that is mainly about the ways we are drastically formed and shaped by our surroundings without knowing it. And when you take that, and apply it to what we're talking about, about this world of like fast paced Christian ministry, or secular society, or living as a cyborg with a digital presence constantly while being a physical person. For me, the beginning point of taking on the ways of Jesus and really evaluating the way we live, was realising that we are swirling in an environment of the world that is constantly conforming us to the ways of the world, Romans 12, right. Do not be conformed by the patterns of this won't be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And so I think the first part is just realising like we are swimming in water we don't know about. And this is the pace in which we live our life. It's how we view our food. It's how we view clothing. It's how we view our phones, it's digital media, what we consume. And so one of the mentors in his cohort I'm in his name is John Tyson. He's an Australian, who met pastors a Church in New York City, but he says, all the spiritual formation begins with counsellor formation. And so a big part for me over COVID was just taking COVID as a chance to like pause and evaluate and peel back the layers of like the reactive patterns of my life. And look at am I really taking a Sabbath or am I just having an off day? Or why is it that my screentime says, I'm on my phone six and a half hours a day is that the best use of my time. And so a big part was just getting really brutally honest about the ways in which the rhythms of my life were not by design, but by default, and the default setting was dictated by the world, not scripture. And so that affected things like, what type of media do I consume, it affected? Sabbath, like I talked about? My wife and I recently did like a 35 day challenge with our Church where we cut out just for 35 days, we cut out alcohol, fast food, social media, and TV and movies, just to create space. For out of time of contemplative prayer in the morning, invite the spirit and the Lord to sort of tell us like, where are we wasting time. And, and from that it enabled us to really get honest about how much time we actually had. Because I think at least in America, we are not honest with ourselves about how busy we are, and how trivial those busy things are. And so I think the first part for anyone listening who wants to take a stab at like reevaluating spiritual disciplines, it's, it's taking an honest look at the water they're swimming in and realising you are being actively formed everyday by the world. The accounts you follow on social, what you listen to, on your way to work, what's the first thing you do for the first 20 minutes of the time you are awake, all of that forms you in some way? And so we just have to be honest about am I being formed in the likeness of Jesus by being indexed toward him? And pushing back against the ways of culture? Or am I just sort of casually drifting along with the tide of this? You know, the societal rhythms. And so for me, I'm still in the boat where I think a lot of what I'm doing is just stripping away the old self, the old habits, the way I you know, social media, stuff like that. Now, there are some big things I've started doing like Sabbath, which I could go into if you want like solitude, where I'm pretty much never more than two months away from taking a full day in silence, like in the woods by myself with nothing but a Bible in a journal on a book. But yeah, I went on a rant there, I lost myself in it, but but that was helpful.
Nathan Benger 27:17
Well, it's been so good to be together. Thanks for listening, everyone and remember, like, share, subscribe, whatever you do, wherever you consume the content do that. Also head on over to IKON dot Church four slash open for any resources and get signed up for exclusive access to loads of free content, but it's been great being together on the church explained podcast big thank you to Jonathan, and we look forward to seeing you all next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
