CEP SEASON TWO EP:07 - WITH GUEST JONATHAN MOYNIHAN
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Welcome to Season 2 Episode: 07 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Join us for part TWO of the show, where you will hear Jonathan Moynihan continue to share his leadership story. We explore with him what key practices he has included in his life and his team at Mosaic Church. We talk about Sabbath, solitude, silence and much more.
Some interesting things about Jonathan are -
He is a former journalist, now a pastor and a podcaster located near Washington DC and Baltimore in the U.S.
He also is a longtime fan of European football; he loves good coffee and helping people walk faithfully with Jesus in cultures hostile to the ways and teachings of Jesus.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Created by AI so not perfect but good.
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast, a conversation to prove your leadership and build your Church
David Mckeown 0:14
I think I think it'd be good maybe just to pick up on the Silva thing. Yeah, it's come up a few times in the conversation. And I guess a lot of people listening may not have a clear understanding of what you're talking about when it comes to Sabbath. So I wonder if maybe you could speak into that a little bit, maybe on Sabbath on even the ways of Jesus, because some of this language, again, may be new for some of our listeners, what do you mean by the waves of Jesus? And what does that Sabbath look like for you? And I can other people put that into practice?
Jonathan Moynihan 0:45
Yeah, so the simple, the simple way I look at the ways of Jesus is Jesus would constantly withdraw to be with God, in isolation up on the mountain. And then he would come down to deeply engage the world. And it was this rhythm constantly of intense withdraw to be with God, and then go be with people. And we see him withdrawing so much that if we did that, as leaders, people would say, We're distant and unavailable. But the G, the way of Jesus was resting with God, and under the overflow of that rest going to be with people in ministering and serving and caring for them. And so there's a simplicity to the way of Jesus, there's a pace and a posture and a volume to his life. So when I say the way of Jesus, I'm kind of talking about those type of things. John Mark comer, Pastor of Bridgetown Church, he has a new nonprofit called practising the way he goes into it. Brilliantly, there's a series of teachings they do at Bridgetown, that highly recommend. And so for me when I say it, I'm mostly talking about the uncovering of life that he talks about in one of John marks, books. So just sort of the the summation of what I'm talking about. That's what I mean. But then, when it comes to Sabbath, the way Sabbath comes in is Jesus honours the Sabbath as a Jewish rabbi. But he also still did miracles, which is why the Pharisees and Sadducees got upset. But long story short, the Sabbath is not something that you work toward, at the end of the day to just have a break iView the Sabbath think Jesus model the Sabbath as something you work from. So you don't work toward that you work from that. And so Sabbath is a day where I kind of I use the phrase four P's, where you pause, and stop doing a bunch of stuff. It's where you praise, you have extended time of praise with God. So prayer time, journaling time, could just be going for a walk in silence. So it's paused, praise play, you know, part of the Sabbath, part of that Hebrew which Shabbat means to delight in God in His creation. So you need to play, go play golf, go watch soccer, that's why watch football on Saturdays. And then the fourth P that everybody misses is this idea of prep, that you have to prep in order to have a good Sabbath in order to pause and praise and play well, on your Sabbath day. You have to prep. That's why the Friday in Hebrew culture was the day of preparation, which shows the brilliance of God, the the cross, the day he was crucified, was on the day of preparation, that the Lord was preparing the renewal and redemption of all things on that day. And so, Sabbath when I experienced it, I almost want it to feel like a vacation day, like my wife and I will sometimes put our phones in a cubby. And we won't look at them starting on Friday night. We tell our kids tomorrow is our day of rest with God. And so we'll we'll talk about like making cookies or making milkshakes or having ice cream like delighting, you know, I'll try to do a workout but it's like a light workout. But then I wake up so early to rest and be with God for an extended period of time. But I do, I have no notifications on my phone, I have no email on my phone. I typically try not to look at my phone all day. I certainly don't schedule any work meetings. And the goal is that from this place of rest, I go into Sunday more full more connected to the Father. And I take mine on Saturdays, so that I'm operating from that place into ministry on Sunday. But the Sabbath isn't like a day off where you just don't go do things or where you just go run all your errands. You know, my family and I are even navigating. What do we do with kids sports because in America, kids sports is a religion, like you give up your entire Saturday to it. And my wife and I are thinking like, okay, the Sabbath is a lifeline that God gives us it wasn't created for us. It was created for man. Like Scripture shows the Sabbath was created not for the Lord but for man. And even if you look at the Sabbath, in Genesis, like the first time God rested was after He created man. And so he doesn't need a break. He's God and yet, he rests with us. So out of the overflow of that we go out into creation as beings connected to God. And so we're even having to navigate like, if Sabbath is the lifeline of the Father to us to help us live a sustainable life of ministry. Should we even do kids sports on Saturdays? We don't know, we haven't gotten there yet. Our kids are only for two and seven months. But the I think oftentimes in ministry, the Sabbath is viewed as a luxury, instead of a lifeline, and the seasons of my life when I was unhealthy, and the ministers that I connect with who are like on the brink of burnout, almost none of them take a real Sabbath.
David Mckeown 5:22
Sure, yeah. So you've mentioned Sabbath, you've mentioned solitude, what other practices have you added in over the last while that's really helped you as a leader?
Jonathan Moynihan 5:34
Yeah, the two that come to mind are really embracing silence as a method of spiritual formation. And when I say silence, I mean like, no worship, music, no phone, no TV, not even reading the Bible, just like sitting and being quiet for an extended period of time. And you should know like, I'm not a contemplative monk, like person, I have any RAM seven, I want to go go go all the time. You've heard me talk about like my recovering people pleaser stuff. And so nothing in me is wired to want to just sit and be still. But for me, I begin the first 75 minutes of my day in absolute silence. Now that involves me waking up, putting on my clothes, brushing my teeth, making some coffee takes about 20 minutes to get to my time with the Lord, in my seat that I have in my house. It's where I meet with God. But then I sit sometimes for five to 30 minutes in absolute silence. And Ruth Haley Barton says, in silence, we allow the sediment of our soul to come to rest. So we can see clearly through the water that is our life. And for me, that's what silence does. So that's one practice, I encourage everybody to do. Another big part of that is spiritual, biblical memorization. And, you know, I think, in the West, we can view scripture memorization as like this thing to do that makes us holy. But for me, like I'm a sucker for the Psalms now, and I just tried to memorise the Psalms, Psalm 131, one, Psalm 19, Psalm 40, Psalm 27, Psalm 23 parts of someone it because it's so long,
David Mckeown 7:10
I was gonna ask you about, can you do that for us?
Jonathan Moynihan 7:13
Yeah. But I think those are some big ones. And then, for me, Lectio Divina is this sort of ancient spiritual practice of praying through scripture, it's a way of inviting the Holy Spirit to teach you and engage you through scripture, that's become a big part of my Bible reading. So it's essentially sitting in stillness for a while, having a passage select and inviting God to show you something, reading it once, praying some more reading it a second time to see if there's a phrase or word that jumps out, and then reading it a third time to invite God to show you why is that coming to mind, and there's a really helpful app out there from the 24/7 prayer network, called Lectio 365. that I use and sort of like my gateway drug into some of this stuff. So I'd recommend that app if people want to experiment, it's usually only eight to 10 minutes. So if you're in a rush, you can still do it. But and then obviously having like a, praying the hours type rhythm of prayer, like prayer of contemplation in the morning, prayer of charisma is what I'd say in the middle of the day where I'm like, Lord, show me where you're moving, where do I need to be alert to you? Where have I sort of pulled in my spiritual antenna when I shouldn't. And then in the evening, doing prayers of examine where you're just thank God for things I pray with my wife out loud, we pray with our kids, you know, we'll do now praying with my kids is God, what are we grateful for? And that's all we do, because they're four and two. But those are sort of their basic ancient practices that like early founders of the faith did. And those I think, have been my way of protesting against the pace and volume of our digital culture, to just be centred with Jesus. So those are sort of the basic ones. I hold to that when I'm discipling. Other people, I get back to them all the time. Moreland,
Nathan Benger 9:06
brilliant, I think so good for leaders to hear, and even to begin to think, grab a hold of some of those, you know, resources that you've mentioned, all of that where they can start. You mentioned that about just at the end, they you kind of said about discipling others, and maybe changing tact a little bit, but how do you think leaders should implement discipleship into their ministry and Church? Like answering the questions? Where should they start? And how will they know they are winning in that kind of model?
Jonathan Moynihan 9:39
Hmm. Well, I think something I have to say up front is I think there's this like bell curve when you learn something. When you first learn something, it's like real simple. And then you learn a lot and you get into this like complex headspace. And then the really brilliant people can take the complex and make it simple again, I think I'm stuck in this column. Flextone, where I still don't know how to articulate things well. And so I'll talk to people and they'll just look at me like, I'm crazy, or, you know, part of the podcast that it was me just creating at bats to try to get better at articulating the simplicity of walking with Jesus. And being a leader who kind of keeps it simple. So I'm not good at this yet. So I just want to preface it. So even if people listening or like, the sounds kind of like weird, New Age, Christian, Buddhist, it's not I'm just not good at communicating it go listen to John Mark, or Ruth Haley Barton or someone better than me go read Thomas Merton. And you'll get what I'm saying, a great book to start. It's called The Way of the heart by Henry. Now, when I tell people all the time, if you go read that book, it's 100 pages, you'll never have to listen to me again, you'll understand everything I'm trying to get at. But if you want to, in terms of discipling other people, the two things I'd say is one, you have to start with yourself. If you want to lead people into, you know, Jesus says, My yoke is easy, and my burden is light. If you aren't living under that easy yoke every day, you will never Pastor people to experience it themselves. Or they might get there. But it's not under your leadership. Because I don't think you can lead people to a destination that you yourself haven't been to. And so my first thing would be to encourage leaders to ask some questions about like, do they have a hidden inner life with God, I catch myself sometimes praying to God in the plural, because I'm so used to praying for a Church. And I'll say, I'll be in the middle of my silent time with Jesus, but I'll say God, and and we just want you to and I'm like, timeout, there's no one here. I imagine that that's an indicator that I'm so used to praying out loud in front of people for ministry, that it's actually bleeding into what should be this intimate time with God, which means I'm probably praying more in ministry than I am in my own personal walk with Christ. So asking the question, do you have an inner life with Jesus? You know, I think it all just starts with us. And so that would be a really good first place. Another thing would be, and I still feel awkward when I do this. But sometimes when I'm about to jump into a tactical meeting, where we just have to hit the winds and misses from a weekend, just starting in two minutes of silence, and then praying, and then going into the meeting, and you're not trying to over spiritualize, the meeting, but I think in ministry, we almost can plan God out of our leadership. And I'm guilty of that. I've been guilty of that. But another example, in my discipleship of my staff, when we do our monthly strategic meeting, it's about three hour meeting, I start by walking them through like a guided prayer time, where we're silent for several minutes. And then I have them check in on what emotions they're feeling and why and they give them two minutes. And they talk about how they're feeling burdened by a volunteer who hurt them, or they feel like a bad parent, or they got disciplined, because something they did wasn't good enough, and they feel shame about it. And we bring all that to the table. And we say, This is not who you are. But this is what you're bringing in. We are united in this team. We are knighted by the Spirit, you know, we're trying to reach lost people. So let's I'll put this on a shelf, knowing that this is what's on display. And let's lead out of that today. And just little stuff like that, I think creates moments where we in those moments of leadership, we teach them things that they can go and apply on their own. But like one thing I do is when I talk to somebody who's really up in arms about something in the news, or they're really struggling with anxiety, the first thing I do is I say, hey, pull up that thing on your iPhone that shows me your screen time. And I make him show me their screen time. And it shows what apps they're on. And bro that tells me what water they're swimming in. And I don't say that from entitlement. I say it from heartbreaks, I know what it's like. So there's just really practical ways where you can call out the water we're swimming in, invite them into something more thoughtful and slowed down. And then I think from that place, the three things I would encourage people to think through is
Jonathan Moynihan 14:15
are you able to be a non anxious presence? Like that's something to work toward? You know, are you adopting stillness as a rhythm with Jesus, even if it's just for a few minutes in between your meetings and lunch? And then, you know, take an honest look at some people that you lead, and ask them like, Do you sense that I operate out of the overflow of a private relationship with Jesus? And if the answer to that is not a good one, I think that tells you exactly where to begin. But Jesus being the ultimate example, was just always out of the overflow of his presence with the Father. And so I think that should be our goal. So I know it's kind of simple, like, Hey, start with yourself, but I just think that's where it all goes. In terms of us that question, how do we know if we're winning? Right? The Big Picture answer I have is I think it's the tension of this way of leadership is that it makes it more difficult to know if you're winning, which pushes back against our, like western ideals. And I think that is why even when someone may get like hit by a bus in ministry, there's that temptation to go right back to like budgets and buildings, and butts and seats, and attendance. And those things are important, you should track those things we do all the time. We're crazy about data at our local Church. But if you're like validation comes from that, obviously, that's really problematic. But I would say a couple ways to know if you're winning, is ask very practical questions of your people about how well they are abiding with Jesus. So some of the questions I ask are, hey, in the last 30 days, how many of them have you read and reflected on God's word? That's just a simple number. Hey, how many days in the last 30? Have you worked out or done physical activity to remind yourself that you're not just a spirit, but you're a body that you have to honour God with your body? Hey, how many days in the last 30 days? And this is for the men that I lead? How many days in the last 30? Have you seen a naked woman that isn't your wife? Because that's different than like, Hey, how's your struggle with lust? Where they can skirt around the answer? It's like, No, how many women have you seen that aren't your wife that were naked? And it's like, those are little questions that just show sort of the posture of somebody's heart and let you into, like, the love shoe in under the hood. But um, you know, I think we have this tension in our Church, where there's people who have been leaders for a while, but when I asked them to pray out loud, they want to poop their pants, like they're super intimidated. And my judgement is, that goes away, the more comfortable you get praying alone with the Father. And so even stuff like that, of how well or how comfortable are people modelling, what it looks like to engage God in corporate settings. So I'm a big fan of corporate prayer. And again, I don't come from Pentecostal tradition. But I think praying out loud together is a really powerful thing. So unfortunately, for those that really want like, very strict like tactical, hey, here's how you know you're winning. I think that's the burden of like, sort of the monastic way of Jesus or putting down some of those Western metrics as like, it's harder to tell. And I do think, resilient disciples is what we should be running after. And so when you see somebody choose Jesus and choose his word over the narratives of culture, you know, oversleeping, with the girlfriend, choosing to give even though they don't make a tonne of money, like all those things are super great indicators of winning. But for me, even I have to catch myself because I want to grade how well I'm doing. But how do you grade? Somebody's spiritual maturity and the quiet place with God? I don't know.
David Mckeown 17:58
Yeah, great. Again, I guess there's gonna be something in there in the sense of having some self awareness or sale. Yeah, a rind are my operating out of rest, or restlessness, because that's some of the things you've said there. You know, maybe that's just a little indicator? Not necessarily. You're winning. But actually, you're on the right track. Am I operating out of rest? Then restlessness could be a good yes. thing for leaders.
Jonathan Moynihan 18:28
Yeah, and I think even asking the question about Sabbath, let's make that a baseline, like that's a baby step. So on our team, every week, we bring up someone on our team who crushed it, and we honour them. And then we have to own where we failed that week. And if you fail, you get like the stuffed animal Fail Whale. And it's like this badge of shame. And you get a $5 gift card at Dunkin Donuts for owning your failure. But it's like this big thing on our team. But it's an automatic, Fail Whale, if you work on your Sabbath, like our culture has gotten so into this, that if you work on the Sabbath, because of poor planning, not because the ox is in the ditch, but because of poor planning, you automatically get the fail well, and even like auditing, how well your team is honouring the Sabbath could be a really simple way to know if you're winning because you're trying to deposit people who are operating at a sustainable pace for ministry. Because I mean, you guys know, I know. And a lot of the leaders listening to this will know there are more and more famous pastors falling it seems like than ever before, and it makes me furious. And it's makes me furious, not at them as much as it is for what that does to the sceptics who were in their pews who are now no longer going to ever check out a Church. And it's like these little things like Sabbath for me. I can't go help the Church in Houston who just lost his megachurch? Pastor, I can't go help the people who are affected by that ministry, that ministry in that ministry, but what I can do is tell the leaders that I lead, go be with Jesus go on to the Sabbath operate from rest, not rest. Listen, as you said, and I think that is, my judgement is the people who burn out and do terrible things like that, that hurt the kingdom of God. They're not doing the little stuff like this.
Nathan Benger 20:11
So it's so good and so insightful. I know, Jonathan, you've got a, you've got your own podcast called the white flag. Yeah. And it's a great, it's a great podcast, would you just explain what it is? How it's helping other others? And kinda like where, you know, what is the gap you're looking to fill with that podcast?
Jonathan Moynihan 20:32
Yeah. It really came from feeling like we had a bad faith formula that got exposed from COVID. And that was a plus b plus c. And it was like attend Church, read your Bible be in a small group or community. And if you do those three things, you'll grow in your faith. And we told people that for a long time, and then when COVID happened, nobody's faith made it like nobody stuck it out. And so those aren't bad things. But in my opinion, they were incomplete because they did not include the spiritual disciplines in these rhythms of like drawing near to God and having like a private connection with him, in addition to being in the word being connected, local Church, reading your Bible. And so the void I was trying to fill was helping people almost realise that depth in faith isn't learning all like the right things are learning the Greek in Hebrew. So many people want to learn Greek and Hebrew, but they can't obey the Bible in English. Like, let's not worry about that. Let's just like that, learn how to how to rest and be with Jesus. And so out of that void, and like, frustration, or even deconstruction, or restlessness, I wanted to provide an the goal of the podcast is for me, to not be the expert, but like set a table for God to work in your life, through these contemplative practices, so I call it you know, courageous acts of courageous surrender, where it takes a lot for you to put down your methods of control, and just give up with Jesus and let him go to work with you through silence, solitude, Sabbath, withdrawal, stillness, slowing down. And so I talked about everything from like, how to pray when you're really grieving, or why cellphones are damaging for your faith, and you need to be cautious of like how well they influence you. Or talking about how the news media, I lost you there for a second, I got nothing here, or how the news media actually is something that you need to be conscious of, and the way that it forms you. And so, and then once a month, I do an interview twice a month to do a monologue. And then once a month is like a guided meditative prayer for you to sort of have 30 minutes to try this stuff out. And so, you know, the podcast is kind of the overflow of what you guys have asked me about today. But I think most of us operate at a pace and volume that drowns out the voice of God. And my goal is to slow people down, and help them get to the place where they can hear God's whisper, because according to Scripture, that's how he speaks.
David Mckeown 22:56
Yeah, definitely. It's and it's a great podcast. Yeah, it is.
Nathan Benger 23:01
Culturally relevant, because episode 36, his word all ruined my time with God.
Jonathan Moynihan 23:09
Yeah, did that whole thing I felt so embarrassed. But I got obsessed with Wordle. And I found myself doing Wordle before spending time with God, and it got my mind's going, and all sorts of directions. And it really impeded my ability to like, bring my full self to him, I started thinking about what made me anxious. And instead of bringing that in the context of My presence with God, I made God like a waiter that just, here's all the things I want, please go fix it. And it's just, I had to get back to it. I put my phone away again, I violated my own principle.
David Mckeown 23:39
Well, we're all on a journey learning process. So listen, John, tell us a little bit who's been your greatest inspiration and why you can't say Jesus, of course, we know that's true, but somebody other than Jesus. Yeah.
Jonathan Moynihan 23:55
The first person I think of is my wife. She has gone through, like childhood trauma, deep pain, she's done more soul work, like deep soul work than like anyone I know. And the ways that God has used her and her pain to shape me. Without her, I don't think I'd be in this place. And so she's been a huge source of inspiration for me. And she's not like a Christian leadership, spiritual growth. She says, a normal, regular Jesus follower who just wants to love Jesus well, and she's been huge for me. And then, you know, my lead Pastor Carl took a risk and hired me when I was just a journalist. And so he's a big part of it. And then you know, some other people I'd encourage you to go read if you're able is Henry now and John Mark comer. Philippians. see Thomas Merton. Those men have written works that have significantly shaped me they've been huge inspirations.
Nathan Benger 24:51
Great. And if, if you could encourage our listeners with maybe another, you know, another thought another big idea, what would that be?
Jonathan Moynihan 25:03
something I'm really passionate about right now is we overestimate what we can do in seven days. And we grossly underestimate what we can do in seven months, and really what God can do in seven months. And I say that because when we look at, like any type of formation or transformation, you know, you may hear me talk and it's like, okay, I want to go try these things. But the truth is, like, I've, I've been like on this path by God's grace for like four and a half years. And I still get distracted by Wordle. And I would just encourage people like, whether you're trying to build a business or build a ministry, or grow spiritually or adopt new spiritual disciplines, our world tries to make you get super motivated, and try to crush it every single day and overestimate we can do in seven days. But I think it's better that we take an honest look, and how much we could accomplish in seven months if we do the small things in the right direction over a long period of time, and just how much transformation that happens. And so, you know, I would just encourage someone who wants to try to lean into the quiet place with God. You're not doing it wrong, when you're distracted, you're not doing it wrong. When you feel weird, you're not doing it wrong, like past painful memories come up in the consume your time with Jesus. When Jesus withdrew, he met the devil. So you're in good company, if you find bad things in your silence with God, but just don't overestimate we can do in a week. And don't underestimate what you can do near,
David Mckeown 26:30
like, small steps over time. Yeah, there's something powerful, because often we're looking for the big things, aren't we? Hey, well, we've got a final Buddhist question. We always love to ask or guess which is this? What is the one question that no one is asking you that you wish they would? And what is your answer to that question? I have a microphone that I had to put up.
Jonathan Moynihan 26:54
Yeah, what is one question that no one is asking that you wish they would? Um, I think here's one that comes to mind. Does my Pastor no matter where you are? Does my Pastor have real vulnerable relationships in the local congregation who can help him when his heart starts to go sideways? And part of that is my conviction and passion about all the ways in which public failure has been incurred growing, but I wish more people would ask me when I think about how do we prevent this type of failure and this type of damage to the kingdom of God? And so for me, I wish people would ask more, hey, how does our Pastor have real thriving, vulnerable friendships that hold him up when he feels like giving up or when his strength is waning? Because that's the theme that I see in people who fail are they're all buddies with other pastors. But they're all distanced, and they're not local. And so that's, that's something I'm, I have a high energy behind. So that's why that comes up from here thinking
David Mckeown 28:06
you're thinking not through that. And for you.
Jonathan Moynihan 28:11
What's my what's my answer that question? Thankfully, that passion is birthed from the fact that my Pastor has that we, we did a small group for two years. That was basically conducted by psychologists and it breaks down like the deepest wounds of your childhood. And you talk about the ways you judge people in the ways you get validation. And what's your relationship with anger? How did your mother display love? How did your father display love, and my Pastor was in that group with about seven other men. And he said, I will not do this if you treat me different. And so from the beginning, we went in, and we there were exercises where we had to work, I was mad at him from a leadership decision he made that day. And then we would have to, like clear the air in front of everybody in order to do the psychology work. And I've just seen him model for me what it means, which is why I'm so passionate about it. So it's a little bit of a self serving question, I guess. Yeah, well, good question.
Nathan Benger 29:07
It's a great question. Well, Jonathan, it's been amazing to chat together on the podcast, what's the best way for people to connect with you? Out there in the world?
Jonathan Moynihan 29:19
Man honoured to be here with you guys. Thank you for this. I feel like I rambled so much, but I'm honoured that you guys are having me on. If people want to connect with me. They could do so on Instagram, my handles Jonathan dot Moynahan, or even easier would be my website. It's basically a landing page for the podcast, but it's Jonathan moynihan.com. There's a button that says hit me up and I get emails from people there quite a bit. So either way, I'd love to talk and, you know, any resources that I mentioned, or books or even specific, like podcasts that I've done about how to start, no solitude or how to have a solitude day stuff like that I could just send resources that would be helpful. So, Instagram, Jonathan Monahan or the website, John? Yeah.
David Mckeown 30:00
And great. And maybe if you even want to send us a list of those things, so we can put them in our show notes as well.
Nathan Benger 30:06
Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes in the description as well and link people there. Well, it's been so good to be together. Thanks for listening, everyone and remember, like, share, subscribe, whatever you do wherever you consume the content do that. Also head on over to IKON dot Church for slash open for any resources and get signed up for exclusive access to loads of free content, but it's been great being together on the church explained podcast big thank you to Jonathan, and we look forward to seeing you all next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
