CEP SEASON TWO EP:13 - WITH GUEST MAKOTO FUJIMURA
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Welcome to Season 2 Episode: 13 of the Church Explained Podcast.
A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
We are back for part two with Makoto Fujimura, an artist, author, and creator. Makoto is the founder of the International Arts Movement and the Fujimura Institute and co-founder of the Kintsugi Academy.
We explore with Makoto how God creates for enjoyment, not just for utility, and why we should live extravagant lives as leaders.
We hope you enjoy it!
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hi, I'm David Jones, I am the host of the church explained podcast. And today we're so excited, we've got an amazing guest where there's a guy by the name of Michael Tucci mirror, and he is an artist, a creator and an author
David Mckeown 0:21
think there's something very powerful in this idea of, of slowing down. And I suppose experiencing things not just from an auditory point of view, like a lot of churches focus around this idea of what's sad, but I wonder if there's something more to fear than growth, about the axe experiencing life together. And, and as you say, maybe using our senses, within the Church, you know, we're not, not just think we have to go down one line, and do things in a certain way. But maybe we would experience even faith and God more if, if we were be able to explore some of those big ideas. Were even within the Church, because I think sometimes it can be very, a narrow way of experiencing fear. But there's so much more of connecting together isn't there? When we meet together, rather than just as you say, being on Zoom? It's good as it is. But but we need we need human contact, we need contact with our surroundings as well, don't we?
Makoto Fujimura 1:29
You know, we're grateful for technology, we absolutely no question about that. I just came back, my bride runs a mercy organisation in India. And we were miraculously able to go, she hasn't been able to go in two years. So but what happened there is in the middle middle of brothels, Red Light District in India, we were able to establish a Children's Centre for children of living in the brothels. So there are children trapped in that cycle violence cycle. And when we began this, this began a while back, but was expanded during COVID, because they had nothing else to do but build, you know, to renew the building, so they weren't used that time. And we were able to give them funding so they can they can build this beautiful school in the midst of this total darkness. And, and children that are 70 children that come every day from the brothel, they have to go back to the darkness, but they come every day. And what I noticed that was really surprising to me, was that, even though these children were only perhaps in school for six months, they had a high higher attentiveness than American children. You know, that's a kindergarten in Princeton. How is that possible? Well, it's possible because these kids are just running around during the day, you know, they have to use their senses to survive. Right? And of course, there's trauma there. So we have to deal with that. But despite that, these children have this awareness and presence and joy. They're absolutely beautiful children, they, you know, and it's, it just amazes me how in the western industrialised realities, we don't fully understand most the reality of human human power to create in the midst of, you know, I mean, this is brothel and net, right, next door is a garbage dump. So it smells awful. And, and yeah, the children have the ability to make you you ask them to draw, and it's full of colours, right? Because Indian culture is full of colours. So they understand colour, and, you know, they, they're naturally drawn to beauty. And, and to be able to create beauty, whether it be through crayon, or, you know, sorry that they're wearing is, is just something that they, they, you know, they cultivate right in the midst of nothing. And here we are, you know, all of us are from America wearing grey T shirts. You know, and so, so those are some of the things that I think we see in the world that you know, when when Jesus talks about the kingdom being upside down, and you know, Blessed are the poor. This is what it means. We need to go to places that we think And we will be totally, you know, uncomfortable. And we will find that those people will make us comfortable, because they aren't about hospitality, they, you know, we will go and say, well, this place doesn't have beauty, we go and find out that these people can give us more beer than what I thought was possible. So that's, that's what Jesus means. And when, when the Church is awakened to that reality, whether it been, you know, in India, or in the Bronx, or in you know, London or Scotland, that, you know, Belfast would be a great place to find that discrepancy upside down kingdom, you know, that, then then we realise, you know, the way we educate, and where we worship, has disconnected ourselves from the very places where Spirit is at work. Right. And, and so that's, that's not my intent. But that is what the Zoom reality has done to us technology, and also communities, you know, how the society is set up, you know, we
Makoto Fujimura 6:13
have on on caste system in America, that we don't talk about. So, so these are barriers that all of us can see, and then break through with the gospel, if we are trying to make something new into the world. And that's that mercy, you know, is the entry point into beauty?
David Mckeown 6:35
Yeah, that's wonderful. And it would be good. Just a, we'll get down for from your bites that that charity as well. And we'll put it in the show notes. And people can maybe explore that. Yeah, we'd be happy to do that. I know, people are going to have a look and find out more about that. Yeah, one of the things I was really taken aback by was this idea of, when God creates things, he doesn't create them just in the sense like you talk in the book, this idea of the industrial idea of using things it's all the produce for use, but actually God creates first is just because he wants to enjoy and I think there's something powerful in that as know that that actually what can we create, just enjoy and that is the why the wise they enjoy it rather than it has to do something else. Yeah,
Makoto Fujimura 7:27
I Yes, I started with a concept, theological concept of a city of God which which is not talked about much. see it? Why I say the is basically the idea that God does not need us, or the creation. And so why God is all sufficient. So why did God create? It's because God is love. Love exudes beyond what is necessary. When you're taking someone day, you don't do accounting. You don't do plumbing, or unless you're plumbers, you take, could you do something extravagant, you do something with tutors, you do something that is not useful. And that points to the love that you want to convey to your partner that this is something that is new, you know, I am I want to go on a journey with you. That is not just about survival, but abundance, and beauty and complexity, perhaps, right? So so when we realise what love is, we realise that if God is love, and God is beauty, then what we have pronounced as necessary conditions or checklists or things to be able to be pleased by God. God doesn't. That's not what God is interested in. The there are things that are important, you know, for ordinance and ethics and morality, and yes, yes, yes. But those things flow out of a heart of love. And so, you know, artists always aware of this discrepancy. And we realise like, well, first of all artists are not needed in that sense. But they're the first ones that dictators like Putin wants to shut down. Right? Why? Because we speak of a world in which abundance is real. We can point to the world where beauty matters. Not not your power, but beauty, beauty of individual souls matter. And that's what writers do underground and in jails, and there was a more powerful and more endearing than what a dictator can do. And so that proves that in the midst of darkness in the midst of conflict and war zones, there are people who are able to produce things that lasts longer than anything any power of that time. So TS Eliot, writing after the Blitz, and writing words in candles a word that that still to this day is one of the best ways to understand our time. Right? So So those those are things that you know, the points the gratuity, as well, because when you are traumatised the, you know, the last thing you think about is creating beauty. But psychiatrists Tell us, when you create beauty of anything, our neurons literally reconnect, they start to rejuvenate. And so for TSA, writing for Cortez was not just so because he was a poet, but it was because it was absolutely necessary for him to find sanity again. And and so for us today, you know, for First of all, there are artists doing that today, and we need to find them and, and, you know, bring it bring them into speak to us, show us what they're seeing. But, you know, the Church itself is God's artwork, right? The Church is the bride of Christ, it is beautiful to God. And we have to start looking at the Church that way too, then, and not just for utilitarian purpose, but but for the gratuitous beauty that the Church can be in the midst of darkness. And that's that's precisely what is happening today in Ukraine.
David Mckeown 11:35
Hi, everyone, I hope you're enjoying the podcast, we just want to take a moment and pause and let you know, but something exciting we have on offer right here from IKON Open, we help leaders find solutions through our coaching on team training. And we've worked with all types of churches in different countries around the world, from large churches to small churches, and of course, anything in between. And leaders come to us for a variety of reasons. For some, they simply want to get to the next level in their leadership, they want a coach to work with them for a period of time, so they can get new momentum or fresh ideas or fresh insights for the next part of their journey. Other leaders will come to us maybe they're working through some opportunities or challenges in their Church. And just maybe to have someone to think with them to help them process through big ideas, like staffing, or teams or transitions really does seem to make a difference to them. So if you've never had a coach and you're a senior leader or leader within a Church, we want to encourage you to get in touch with us. Because we think we can really help you find the solutions you need for the next part of your journey. Have a look at IKON dot Church forward slash coaching. And you'll find all the details there of it connect with us. And we look forward to hearing from you very, very soon. Yeah, yeah. And I think that those picking up some of those themes, or that sense of abundance, and God creates sort of love and joy. And I guess, I suppose my encouragement would be for those listening today would be Hi, can we do the same? Hi, can we have a mindset where we're thinking of creating out of abundance rather than scarcity? Because we often think there's not enough or you know, I can't create or I can't do something more actually, we can do much more than what we realise. And I suppose just to try and encourage people and our listeners to think hi, hi extravagant can I be with my life? How extravagant can I be, you know, with within my Church, rather than we've done our bed, we've ticked the boxes you've said, but come on, we can do much more, we can be much more extravagant as people and do something just to enjoy, rather than it has an ulterior motive behind it. I think there's something in that. I love that idea. Michael, would you talk about the idea in the book of James and one or two other places abide being doers of the word. And I know you you have a great insight into that. I wonder if you could just share a ride that sort of links in,
Makoto Fujimura 14:06
you know, I found out through just by looking up how many times the Bible uses poor yet as related words, and that's a Greek word. When Paul writes, you are God's, the you know, workmanship, that word is poor Yemma. And so workmanship is a rather industrial Word. It really means you are God's point. You are God's masterpiece point. Which kind of it captures workmanship? Yes, we are made. But it does says more than that. When Jane says yes, you become a doer of the word. And I've heard that passage pretty so many times. As you know, become an activist become you know, you Unless you are showing up in the world, with your face, you know, it's nothing which is not wrong. But the word there is poetics. It literally becomes, you know, the you are to become a doer means to become a poet of the word. What does a poet do? Well, poet pays attention to the word itself and the surrounding reality. You know, Emily Dickinson looked outside her Amherst windows every day and imagine this whole universe. With her words, they craft things that normatively you don't even think to craft, you create new words and new combinations, new sounds, new rhythms. And that's what we're supposed to be as a Church to become a doer of the word means collectively, we are to become poets of the word that we when we sing. The world says, Oh, my goodness, what is that sound? You know, where is that sound coming from? I want to join that. And that's, you know, oftentimes in bleakness in concentration camps. And in Ukraine today, the sound of violin sounds so much more powerful. It can be drowned out in Times Square, but not in the areas of devastation in Sarajevo and other places, so So this is, this is the kind of image that the Church is supposed to become in the world. And so, you know, in order to do that, right, we have to understand, first of all, what does a poet the poet, do? You know, how does he or she function, where, where's the music coming from all those things artists are good at telling us about, but oftentimes, I'd say exiled from society, for example, in the Church. So there's often if they're in the Church, they're going to be sitting in the back where in black, they leave right away after you know, worship, because they don't want to be seen or, you know, they don't want to talk to anybody. I'm an elder, and I'm like that. So I feel for those artists, but, but you know, what, we need to go to them and go to their studios, if you're not an artist, and if you want to find what it means to, you know, be able to be a child of God dancing in the creation toward new creation. Well, go meet another dancer, you know, a modern dancer struggling with her injury and backstage weeping. Right. And when she appears on stage, you don't know that. But when you get to know that person, you learn that the body is sacred, that person may be an atheist. But it doesn't matter. Because that person can tell you how much it means to be able to make that jump. And when you do, when you succumb all of the you had to go through training, injuries and everything. You know, what happens to your heart it well, you're weeping because you cannot understand that transcendence, you just experience within your body. Your soul is crying out for a paradigm where that we experience can be matched with what you are feeding. And we have the gospel, we have this extravagant message of the gospel to impart to them. I saw that deep, you are magnificent. I know it's come coming from and I want to share that with you when you're ready. We have to have that kind of approach to culture, you know, not fearing culture, because it's, you know, it's transgressive as it is. But you know, maybe it's transgressive, because industrial reality has dehumanised us, right? So
Makoto Fujimura 19:05
maybe they're speaking the truth when they cry out in, in their arts, you know, when they have an aisle seat, or, you know, around the corner, is doing something that we think is like so strange, but isn't nice, strange, you know? And if you talk to them, you and ask them, Tell me more, you know, rather than judging them, Tell me more. I'm curious, I want to know more, then the whole world opens up to us. And we, I assume you will, we will be dancing with them at the end. Because that's what happens to many people who you know, who kind of go through this process of what I call culture care, rather than culture wars, and then finding that the very thing they were afraid of the very thing that they're fighting against, tends to be Something that God has ordained to so that we have the opportunity to venture out out of our tribal zones into very complex but beautiful world.
David Mckeown 20:11
Fantastic. Makeover, I can ask you them for you. I'll see there's probably lots of people who have inspired you over the years. Within your role as an artist and some of the things you've done some of the installations. Who would be your I mean, obviously, outside of Jesus, somebody that would be the obvious one, but who would be your greatest inspiration? And why?
Makoto Fujimura 20:36
Yeah, I can name a few that definitely my, my wife, agian, who has been, she's an attorney who has such a passion and vision to bring mercy into the darkest places of the world. And, and I just love learning from her and have access to some of these places. A mentor of mine just passed away two days ago, his name was Jay Kyle, and he was part of Redeemer network, Tim Keller's network of city to city. He was a gentle giant, Church planter missionary. And every time we get together, you know, he would always he always wanted to learn about the Arctic. Exactly what I just said that scenario of going to the backstage he would do with me and and it was the backstage of about a studio in Japan, it could be a backstage and Hong Kong or Taipei he was a career missionary and but he would just show up or call me and say Miko, I sense that you need to be doing this tomorrow, fly to Taipei, and meet with those people. It was just like New Testament. And I would go and a whole world opens up. Of course, he had this enormous network in the world, where he saw the gospel at work. And artists, very useful, you know, human beings, because they we can enter any place. So we're missionaries can go, we can go. So he would often send me to places and I got to experience both the darkness and the glorious realities. So I'm going to miss him. And he, he, you know, without being an artist, he is probably the closest to the great artist that I have come to know his art was people. He was planting churches. And and it was it was absolutely beautiful.
David Mckeown 22:51
Well, it's good. So, so close friends. And of course, we're sorry for your loss there as well. Because people like that are so dear to us, aren't they? As we go through life. Yeah. I wonder if I could just ask you one final question. Before we wrap up today. It's been so good to have you with us on the show. And I was just wondering if there's anything else another big idea that you would like to maybe share with our listeners that we haven't covered yet, or maybe something you're thinking about? Maybe it wasn't even in the book, but just something you want to leave with our listeners, as they journey as they seek to grow in their leadership and build churches, I suppose be the artists that they are in their settings.
Makoto Fujimura 23:34
Academy Kintsugi is something that was relaunched with with my wife agian and we have been calling our trip to many places in India. Dr. Dominican Republic coming up, we are calling it Kintsugi peace making. And then we are invited to UK Parliament in November. So pray for us there. We can be part of a mending to not not fixing by mending to make new something out of the fractures that we are experiencing in society and politics and worldwide events. I really believe that when we practice Kentucky that we find healing and and we start to reconnect the dots that trauma has severed. And by doing so we also find community to journey with post pandemic right into a world that of mystery and unknowns that we can't control. And yet you know God is there to meet us. Jesus is the ultimate Kentucky master pouring gold into the fractures that we have the brokenness that we all have And so again, we can Ziggy. journey continues, and actually theology of making book has a reader's guide with Academy can see component attached with several of the documentary films that we have been filming to showcase some of the, you know, the realities of Kintsugi. travels and so forth. So that's downloadable for free your site. So I'll definitely send you a link to that.
David Mckeown 25:37
So yes, sir lady, you send us that link. We'll add that to the site. And that will really help anybody who's really interested in the principle, and I suppose usually, within the wrong setting or even within the Church could be with a small group or leadership. And even within the community, I think there's lots that we can apply this principle to, isn't there. Right, right throughout the life of the Church. Well, Miko, it has been such a pleasure to have you with us today on the church explained podcast. I want to thank you for joining me. If people want to find out more details about you, where would they need to go?
Makoto Fujimura 26:13
Just look up my name. My website will come up and all the linkage to culture care, creative, international Arts Movement, they're all there. So
David Mckeown 26:24
fantastic. So again, we'll put that in the show notes and people will be able to find that. That has been fantastic. So a big thank you for being with us. And that that is a wrap for us today.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
