CEP SEASON TWO EP:17 - WITH GUEST STEVE CAMPBELL
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Welcome to Season 2, Episode: 17 of the Church Explained Podcast.
A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Welcome back to part two, with Steve Campbell
From his experience of 28 years serving at C3 Church, Steve shares key ideas around hearing the voice of God, the language we use with our teams and the opportunities that are now available to the Global Church.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
We're live well. Hi, I'm Dave McKeown. And it's so good to be here today on our church explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your teams.
Nathan Benger 0:16
Yeah, I wouldn't have Steve, I was just thinking on this, giving power away and delegating and, you know, allowing people to try if you have any strategy or anything that that you do that, like, you know, when you want to take control, you kind of don't, don't you allow things to take place? I wonder if you have any kind of strategy that would help a leader who's thinking I want to delegate stuff. But there comes that moment where I see it this way. And I want to grab control. I wonder if you have any strategy or anything that you do?
Steve Campbell 0:51
Great question. I do remember hearing Andy Stanley, speak, about delegating, and people coming up with ideas. And he said, something like this, I may not have exact quotes, but it was make your first response, wow, not how. And I've tried to do that. Because when my propensity is when someone comes up with something, I've given them authority, they come up with something is to go into the weeds and sees and say how, whereas rather, I'm genuinely trying to step back. And this is a strategy I do, I'm telling myself in my brain, don't say how don't say how just go, Wow, what a great idea. And then allowed them to give space to do the how. And it's sometimes in that how that I can have a little bit of say into it. But I genuinely try. And if someone hadn't taken the risk with me, when when we moved to Cambridge, I was 32 years of age, most of our lead team are in that kind of region now. 32, kind of 28 to 32. I was given a lot of space. And younger than that as well. I mean, I remember I was went into full time ministry at the age of 25. And I've never had a proper job since just kept on doing it. So people gave me a lot of trust. So I think it's mostly Okay, I'm going to trust them. And I'd be there to take the flak with them. If it doesn't work as much as the glorious does. Because I think we like to take the glory with it. If it goes wrong, I'm not going to hide behind them and say, oh, is your idea, then I step in and say, we decided this, if I gave you the authority, so people could, I'm more happy today for people to give me the complaints and protect them. If I can possibly do that. I can't protect them fully. But I've heard so many so much stuff over the years, I think I can ride it out a little bit better than they can I think I'm still a human being. So I don't like that. The wild how and then generally let them come with the strategy, but be ready to have a little hand on the tiller in that process. And then take the complaints afterwards, if they come.
David Mckeown 3:20
Sounds like a great strategy that Steve spacey, with a multi site sort of setup, because it could be so easy as you say they go back and just be involved in every detail at every campus, which is just, it's obviously not good for growth really, is it? So it's just as you say, thinking bigger relation people do the stuff.
Steve Campbell 3:39
Yeah. And you're right, the Dave about multisite, we found multi site. multi site is not for everyone. I know in some places, it's getting a bit of a bad press these days and the taitneamh back end. But for us, it was a God given strategy. It won't work if you are over controlling from Central either I don't think in our model, so we have to give genuinely authority to those that are location based and pastors there.
David Mckeown 4:14
So stay just thinking of the opportunities ahead. Thinking of the I suppose I'm trying to think of the global Church, but also your churches. Well, I wonder for you, what do you think the future looks like for the Church? What are the opportunities? That's maybe addressing from a global setting if we can do that? Maybe if you've some insight into that and then maybe into your setting as well there Cambridge?
Steve Campbell 4:39
Yes. Or an interesting time globally. Are we going to Church? We're recording this when there's a lot of turmoil and stuff that's coming out. I have tried to avoid personally wading in on the negativity that comes and I don't I don't like people pointing fingers and saying I told you so. There's a lot of negativity around celebrity pastors, you could be a celebrity Pastor with 50. People will never hear about the stuff that goes on there. This is my view. Now you can disagree with me. But because people have high profile positions, we hear about that, and the media get onto it. But anyone has that temptation in any setting. So I think there is a bit of a reset moment going on that is both, as a consequence, post COVID. And I think people are rightly looking at the models that they've got, and thinking Should they change. And my view on that is, if God tells you to change it, change it. If you're still content with the model that you had pre COVID, because God had told you that and he hasn't changed his mind on it, then stay with it. Don't be tempted to I think the Church historically, particularly charismatic churches, can sometimes get into fads. So this is the latest fad. And I want to avoid fads. I think keep the main thing, the main thing, and listen to God for yourself in your own location. Learn from others. Don't copy others. What's what's the best for you, man say don't copy. I mean, I copied a lot of people. So I mean, adapt it to your context, yes, know where you are. Learn from them what they're doing, but don't, you don't have to become a carbon copy of them. So I think it is a reset moment. And I'm glad to hear a lot of churches are reviewing what they're doing and thinking of doing it differently. Wonderful. If that's what God tells you that the key in all we do and oh, this is so obvious. But it's hearing the voice of the Lord, what what's God's saying to you. And I think God is interested in locations that look at Revelation, where Jesus speaks to different local churches, that are different things that that one local Church has to do, as opposed to the other. And that's, that's the first record the direct words we have of Jesus. post resurrection or post ascension, rather, that is to local churches. So he has a real love for the local Church, local Church. So I would say Hear God for yourself. And I think that's going on. And I think it's forced people to do that. So that's wonderful. I do think there is an opportunity. Technologically I can say in that way. I think we should all we were, we were all before, but we are now we should all be using technology in order to further the gospel. That is where people are, yeah, and the way it's gone. That is an opportunity. So I think everyone should look at that with whatever resources they've got and say, how can we leverage that in the 21st century, after COVID? Because it gave us an absolute boost to move things forward. I know some churches and people will hate this and we're not looking at yet. But they're looking at virtual Church and it has to do with you know, putting on the headsets and that kind of thing. It'll probably come in. People said you'll never go online and they're all online now. They had to show virtual reality churches will probably develop.
Steve Campbell 8:31
If you were to ask me, do I ever think that will replace gathered physical? I don't think it ever will. I think it'll be a supplements. And I think it's a very positive supplements. But I don't think it will ever take the need for community being in flesh and blood at some point as well. So I still think there's an opportunity for that, because I think having people realised how lonely they were and how isolated through lockdown. So I'm sure that you are the same as many churches are, though we haven't seen everybody come back. We have seen a lot of new people. And often the cry that is there for them is we want to connect with people. You want to talk to someone, people are more isolated than ever. So I think we've got an opportunity to demonstrate how Church can be true community. And it can demonstrate a unity like no other organisation on the face of God's earth, you know, differences we can be unified. So So I think we've got an amazing opportunity technologically, socially because of the needs of society, particularly around loneliness. But I think as well, you know, we're going into a season again now where interest rates are going up going up, the inflation is high, people are struggling to pay bills. So there's a lot of need out there. And I think the Church can help meet those needs. Now, it's not all that we should be doing. We've we've tried to keep proclamation of the gospel, what it is, alongside social action and do both. It's not either or, I think we have an opportunity to meet, felt needs real needs in the world around us, Ukraine and Christians taking the lead is an opportunity to demonstrate the love of God, and that they will people will see something of God's love and God's message through us. So I'm not it's hard times out there. Let's be honest with people, but it gives the Church a great opportunity. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 10:43
Just picking up on something you said, Steve, actually, I think it's just amazing insights. But you talking about hearing God? You know, if you hear it from God, I wondered if you had like, one for one thing that you do, to hear God for your Church that could help, you know, as a leader, someone who's leading something who's thinking, I want to hear God, but I'm not hearing God. Is there something that you do to hear God for the Church? Yeah,
Steve Campbell 11:12
I suppose three things come to mind. Number one is, get alone with God. I think in our busy world, we've probably neglected the discipline of solitude more than anything. So I don't tend to hear God. In the busyness, I usually hear God in the coming hours. And you need to find what works for you. You know, for me being in creation. Walking out in the countryside, I feel I hear God. It's one of the things I enjoy when I'm fishing for the oneness. Although I've got to be truthful, when I'm fishing, I'm usually just trying to catch fish. So I don't want to make that too spiritual. Because it's recreation. And I think we need that time solitude with God, if I haven't got time alone with God, my soul suffers. So that's one thing, the danger of that. So let me bring in another thing that that balances that I think we have to be very careful that I don't think that I'm Moses going up the mountain that then comes down with the word from God. So I also think the second part of it is that that needs to be tested in a community of friends and leaders. So as that together we say, yeah, you feel you've heard God in that, and anyone else can have heard God, let's see God together in that. So prayer in leadership contexts, and sounding out what we believe, is also important. And I know those two could sound a contradiction, but I don't believe they are, I believe, it's just that we have to hold together. I can hear God in my alone time. But I don't want to be so separate in my leadership, that not to bring it into a corporate context. So it needs to be tested amongst us. And then together, we will do that what like that house? Yeah, that's,
David Mckeown 13:13
that's brilliant, actually put in our thoughts. So Steve on that? And I think it's, it's good, because it takes the pressure off a little bit as well for the senior leader, doesn't it that they don't have to be Moses going up the hill? Absolutely. Because I think years gone by that was probably the thing, the most senior leaders or people in roles like that thought, I have to be the person to get the vision, they get everything. But there's something powerful, as you say about having something but actually putting putting it within the community, the community of leaders or those around you. And actually the responsibility lies with the group, and not just the individual. And I think there's something powerful enough that leaders can learn. So rather than feeling isolated, and maybe struggling to think, how am I going to know what God's saying that actually trust that God put people around you that those people also can hear, as a community together to forge the way forward?
Steve Campbell 14:10
Most certainly, and I think, in our language, we we try to do this, we try to say we rather than make brilliant. Great. So when we get our vision Sunday has been an example of this. We tried to, I could have got up and said it all. But we had different people who were speaking at different times, portfolio, responsibility, but it also demonstrated to me, we're in this together, because what people see is what they think, oh, that's what's happening. So it was more than one voice. So the language of way and doing it together is really important and also the ability for that team, particularly with the senior leader or leaders to be able to say no, and then you know that there are times when our guys have said to me with just don't think that's right. Or it's not right for now. Yeah, let's hold. Let's hold it up. And I think again, with all this going on in the world, of leaders, leaders need to be able to demonstrate that that sense, I don't like this word. Not because I'm afraid of the word. But because it's used as a hammer against people. The word accountability, but I think you do need it. Pastor positivity capability? Absolutely you do, you do need it. And you've got to pick the people say, No, you gotta be able to take that.
Nathan Benger 15:34
Now, some great insights that people can take forward, we're going to change tack a little bit and talk buildings, you mentioned it earlier, you've been part of the building project. They're in Cambridge, building a Church, incredible building. And we haven't got time to share the whole story. Maybe we'll do that another time. But I wonder if you could just inspire or some things that you took from that building project that could inspire, instruct other people who are going through that same process? At the moment?
Steve Campbell 16:07
Yeah, I think I'd say, remember, we've been here 28 years, it was very early on in our time here that we thought we really need a facility to be able to advance the cause. But Cambridge has been a lot of competition. So I'd say be careful not to compromise the competition for land competition for buildings, you know, Microsoft, Apple, whoever you competing against the coming into the city, it's not that easy. So I'd say don't compromise what you want, ultimately, so we waited and waited. And then this site came up, which was an old Church site with a 1930s 1960s bill, which was within the centre of Cambridge, it's, it's not the very centre, because that's King's College and all the colleges that are there, but it's on the edge of centre. So it should be one, which is the postcode, which is really where we want to. Now I've got to be honest, I'm saying don't compromise, because I was tempted so many times to compromise, and find a building out there or a building there. But it would not have served the purposes of what we did, we did so be careful not to compromise. And if that's going to take you longer better, to wait, then get the wrong building. I think the other thing is realise every delay serves a good purpose. So we had so many delays, I could tell you story after story, or builders that that promise the earth and then didn't come back with the quotes and all kinds. But every delay served for a purpose for us to get the right place, or even simply to have more time. I used to think time was an enemy. Time was a friend in the end because it enabled us agreed to save more money enabled us to get our ducks in a row wherever that phrase comes from enabled just even on the the building when our first builders dropped out. And they threatened us with court action and all kinds. So they dropped out, we pulled out from them, because we found out they were in actually a very precarious administration position, and we were going to be there rescue. But that was a big disappointment to go to the Church and say, you know, we were said we were going to build, well, we can't because the builders who are the cheapest by a long way, they're not in a position to make this happen. So we got to go to the next week. And the next year, it was another million pounds. And we didn't have that million pounds. But But it gave us time to value engineer the project. And to save. So it took us another nine months. And in that nine months, we raised a lot more money. So it was to an advantage. And also, I can't tell stories, because the time but when we moved in, we were phasing the building. Well, we had an old building, which we didn't own. But But at that point, we thought let's try and get ownership of it. Or 25 years earlier, we tried to get ownership of it. And we were told we couldn't we couldn't. Because 25 years has gone past different legislation, different things have happened different examples. We were then allowed to get it. And we were able to sell that building to another Church. Which Dodi just planted into the area. So they were looking for a building. And, and to be honest, they couldn't afford it either. They were only able to do it because a consortium of businessmen were able to do it for them, who just offered to do that for them on a house. And they said don't do it on the house to the building. So what I'm saying is the timing of God and then they paid us a million and we were able to finish off the rest of the building is so amazed every delay turned to our advantage. I just need to remember that ongoingly because I want things to happen fast. But but it's to our advantage. I think the last thing I'd say about buildings here Remember buildings do speak architecture speaks. So when you're building, be careful how you build, use the right people to help you. I've had people join us, simply because they drove past the building. They didn't know anything about it. But they thought that's a nice looking building. Oh, it's a Church. And they came in. I've got a pair of glasses here, which I'll take these off. A guy bought me. I was talking to him. And it my glasses broke. And I said, Oh, I like your glasses. And he said to me, I'll take you to my opticians tomorrow to buy you some. And he bought me those most expensive pairing glasses I've ever had. They're not great for a computer to change either. Now, my point was, he said, I joined this Church, because I drove past and saw your building is an and I love it. It's done. Well, so architecture just be and you reap the benefits of that, even if it's only a propeller glasses.
David Mckeown 20:57
Yeah. Well, we all need to see things right away. Hey, you had a few good thoughts. And there really are maybe we will come back and do another podcast with you save around the buildings, and maybe people are thinking through that may be useful at some point in the future. But I love that. That nugget of idea that actually time is our friend. It's not our enemy. And I think that's key because a lot of people in Church fail times against this, you know, we're in a rush, we've got to do quick, it's all gonna happen. Like, but sometimes when we do that, we compromise creativity. Don't wait. Because we're not given space and time to think the dream. We want it done yesterday. And so I love that time time is your friend. It's not your enemy.
Steve Campbell 21:51
Someone once said about God, God is not in a rush. It's one of his most infuriating attributes.
David Mckeown 21:58
Like, yeah, I've
Steve Campbell 21:59
understood that more. I think if something's happened to when we wanted them to happen, I wasn't ready. We weren't ready as a people. And so there is something of the timing of God in order.
David Mckeown 22:14
So Steve, we want to get a couple of more questions. Before we wrap up today. It's been brilliant to have you on the show. But can you share with us maybe all our listeners, who has been your biggest inspiration on why? Try not to say Jesus, we are taking that as a given. But we're still sort of wrapped up for you. Go for it. He's been your inspiration. And why? Well,
Steve Campbell 22:42
it's an interesting question, because I think I go back in my mind to people who inspired me in early stages, rather than in later stages. You know, so I mentioned my mum, my mum was a superb communicator. And she was a leader in a context where women weren't allowed to lead. She so she was a pioneer. So I saw the way she got knocked back simply because she was a woman in the context we were in. And I found that an inspiration her she kept going. So So I always, I always learned from her. And Life wasn't easy, and, you know, trials and stuff that we went through, I think she was the biggest influence on me. Keeping going of just keeping a positive attitude, and coming back even when you've been pushed back. So I think I have to say, mum, my mum in that context. And that's the why because she was so so determined. She was a ran in the in the war, and Second World War. And I always remember her saying she was eventually they allowed her to splice ropes and things because obviously she was in the Navy that was Navy. And she said I could splice as good as any man. And that was her kind of attitude in order. She wasn't anti man. But she wasn't going to be pushed down when she knew she had gifted. And she was like that in communication. So so her. I've been listening again to some music as well, when I was a teenager, music and Christian music was a big influence on me. But there was a guy called Keith Greene, who wrote a lot of radical listening to the McGahn radical songs about obedience and about sacrifice. In the Church that I grew up in the heroes were the missionaries that came in and I'm grateful for that. You know, they, they they were willing to give their lives I actually thought I said this to my wife when we watch wasn't my wife. She was 14 I was 16. I said to her, we're gonna do something for We'll time for Jesus. And we'll probably die for it. Because that's what I was listening to. That's what I was the music of Keith green so and he died a very early age in a plane crash. But I realised listening back to it now there's the 80s. What an influencer that music 70s and 80s. What an influence that music was on me. So he was a bit of a hero. Who else? Well, I'll stick with the music theme. Because I went to a concert a couple of weeks ago by by Graham Kendrick. And some of you won't know this, but he was a pioneer in Christian music. And I met him at a one events last year. The last one again, I've met him a few times. But I've totally overwhelmed by his humility. So the concert we went to a guy got up at the ends. And he said that my daughter's just home from University. And I was going out tonight. So my daughter said to me, where are you going? And he said, I'm going to Graham Kendrick concert. And she said, Who's he? And everyone laughed, you know, and he said, that shows maybe two things. Number one, my daughter's ignorance. But then she said, My, I decided to show my daughter a photograph of Graeme kanji. She said, he said, here he is, this is whose concert we're going to. And she said, him, that's the guy who leads worship in my Church. So she said, it's those two things. One, my daughter's ignorance or two grand Kendricks humility. And I'm, I'm struck by that humility, and I'm looking around the world right now inspiring me. And I think it's more humility than hype. Yeah, there's been a lot of hype and humility of people. And so people that show that and I Graham Kendrick, I think shows that in absolute, it would also have, so there's those two people, my mom, q3, game, Kendrick, I listened to different preachers all the time, they've inspired me, a guy I particularly like, I just said to you, he was my favourite preachers, a guy called John Ortberg. You may have read some of his books, but I liked the way he and I can't do this as well as him. I like the way he brings a knowledge of God and, and understanding of people together. And I think that makes for a great preacher. They communicate if you understand people who understand God and bring the kiss of those together. You know, you'll you'll touch hearts. So he has been an inspiration to me as well.
David Mckeown 27:43
Awesome.
Nathan Benger 27:45
Amazing, amazing. Well, Steve, as we get into the end, I wonder if there's another idea or something that you're thinking on that you could encourage our listeners with? What would that kind of idea or encouragement be?
Steve Campbell 28:01
Yeah, I think I probably already said it if I'm honest, but trying to think of something different. I was gonna, I was gonna say, you know, be patient. People. 28 years here. Yeah, I had to find the miracle in the mundanity of life. So I suppose I'd say this don't don't always be looking for the big flashy moments. Yeah. They have a told you about some of the prisons and see three impact of where the lady in our services of the week, he'll totally have a blind I instantly. I'd like to give you 100 stories like that. I haven't got them, but they happen. But find the miracle in the mundane at it in the everyday one foot in front of the other. Just keep going. Because you realise after 10 years, oh, I've got a lot further than I thought I thought I'd get there in one. But I've got there, or the story 20 years, or in my case, 30 years. Just keep putting one foot in the other. I'm fine God in those mundane moments of every day. I think that's what I would say to people.
David Mckeown 29:10
Now. That's fantastic, Steve. Steve, thanks for being on the show with us. We're gonna wrap up at this point. And Nathan's gonna share a couple more comments before we finish today. Thanks.
Steve Campbell 29:20
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 29:23
Now it's been so good to have Steve with us. And thank you for listening and thank you for being part of the church explained podcast everyone. If you could subscribe rate review wherever you're consuming this content and that helps us massively and share it with someone that you know that would be inspired or helped by this episode. Make sure you check out the show notes that you can find at IKON dot Church forward slash open plus also a load of free resources but we look forward to being together next time on the church explained podcast. We will see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
