CEP SEASON TWO EP: 21 - WITH GUEST VERNON GORDON
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
The Church Explained podcast is a conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Welcome to Season 2 Episode: 21 of the Church Explained Podcast with guest Vernon Gordon from The Life Church in Richmond, VA.
A Short bio
Vernon is the Lead Pastor of The Life Church in Virginia and the founder of the Mosaic project. A non-profit focused on curating social change and cultural unity for the greater good. He is a self-proclaimed expert on bacon and movies.
He is also an author of a brand new book called Square One: Finding The courage to start over, stay strong, and shape your future. And more importantly, he is married to Ashley and has two children, Madison and Jackson.
In part two of the conversation, we explore with Vernon how we can create margin in our leadership and churches to afford us the space to innovate the future church.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hey, welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. Today we've got an amazing guest, Vernon Gordon with his
David Mckeown 0:18
right, I wonder if you could say a little bit more Vernon just rolled up margin idea, you know, create margin, how do you how do you actually do that within your Church setting within your staff your team? Like, because we understand the concept of creating margin, but how do you actually practically do it? What's it look like for you guys?
Vernon Gordon 0:36
Certainly would not. And I would even say this as well, which is, you know, really in alignment with the book that I just wrote Square One new while that book specifically highlights the personal journey. When we in the back up in square one seasons, I'm actually releasing in the fall a leadership edition. And we cannot say think not only are we navigating our own personal Square One seasons at times in life, but truly we are leading people who are constantly for the last two steps forward, sometimes you take three steps back, and there are four sections in that booklet The first major section is talking about evaluating our commitments. I think this should be a biannual task, right? To say, Okay, Mr. overcommitted, what are we committed to that is not fruitful right now? What are we just doing because it's the way we've always done it. And so I think part of the way you create margin is you, you have an annual or bi annual review of all of the commitments, and one of the ways we do this at a very practical level. And I'll tell our team put down a sheet of paper, and just write down all of our values on one side or over across the top rather, and then all of your commitments, and do they fall under the value systems that we have? And how are we missing it? Are we just doing some things, just because it's, you know, you know, what it was in a season. So that helps a lot, because then what the temptation is, as you remove something and say, Okay, now we can do this new thing. And it's like, no, we remove, and then we have margin, to try to stretch to, to recruit, to develop, to experiment in all of those things. Another key thing I think that is important about margin, is I think we have to take inventory and audit of our rhythm of life. And this is something that I really encourage a lot of leaders to think about is, you know, you know, when you look at your time, how much of it is going to think that you guys might have heard of it, the 8020 rule, right? How much of my time is going to the most important things. And I think often what can happen is I mean, we're looking to people, when they're watching Netflix from from 10, at night to three in the morning, they were lacking. And that's a lot of time that you could be sleeping that you could be resting, but but it also becomes time that we can better steward to create margin for the things that we feel like are meaningful in the season. And the last thing I think that is vitally important with any margin effort is delegation. You gotta get good at delegation. And I just, you know, give credit to credit where it's due, I really learned this principle from a podcast by Andy Stanley years ago, when he talked about the four levels of delegation, and just our zoom to the really quickly, but level one delegation is research base, right. And one of the things I love about this idea of delegation is not just how do I get things off my plate? is also how do I assess what I can let someone own in, you know, temptation and delegation and the danger of delegation in leadership, I think particularly in the Church is kind of all or nothing, we kind of say, either we're like, Hey, I'm not, I'll do everything, or we say, I'm gonna give you everything. And, and I think when four levels of delegation does is gives us a process to create margin, So level one is research base, it looks like saying, Hey, I got a great team member, I got somebody who I think would be a great ally, to own some more responsibility. But instead of just giving them all of it, I need to see a little more. So hey, I want you to bring me back some information, some data, maybe we're doing an event, maybe we're doing an initiative. Hey, I in a couple of weeks, on this day, can you bring me back some quotes? Can you bring back some information? And if they can meet the deadline? If they can do that? Well, you're like, okay, that that level one went great. Level two, delegation is informed progress. It's where we're still checking the box on, you know, you can't move forward on this without me, but you're kind of taking a little bit more responsibility. And before you kind of send out the email, before you kind of send out the messages before you, you know, lock in the contract. I want to be informed on your progress. Let me see where you're at, let's meet weekly, but you're kind of taking more of the responsibility. The third level of delegation is informed results. This is when somebody has been walking with you for a little bit. And you just kind of say, hey, I want you now to give me results or how that meeting went. I don't need to be there. What does that mean margin, right, because we've been walking together. So Now the meeting that I would have had to leave, I don't have to leave. But I do want to hear how the meeting went,
Vernon Gordon 5:07
you know, this event is a little bit smaller, it's not going to sink the ship with the whole organisation, how about you leave it, I'm going to go out with my kids, or I'm going to meet with another team and work on some innovation or some or some new projects. But I do want to hear about the results and how that worked. And then for level four level fourth level of delegation of ownership, this is when you've been walking with somebody, maybe it's been a few months, maybe it's been six months, depending on the scale. But you're like, Hey, I've seen them do well, and all the levels. And now they just kind of got it. And we meet once a quarter determined, how are you doing? How can I continue to support you because I trust your leadership? So I think that's a very practical way room to use delegation as a tool to curate margin. Hopefully, that was helpful.
David Mckeown 5:47
Yeah, I know. That was That was awesome. Lots of stuff in there and practical stuff that people didn't take away and use. Just thinking about your book there. And it's your first book. So a big shout out to your well done on that. I know, you were saying, when we chatted offline, you release at the beginning of this year, I think. So. Anything else, anything else in the book that you want to just maybe mention? Maybe there's some leaders who are listening, and they're thinking I want to get that book? What's the big why? And besides the margin idea?
Vernon Gordon 6:18
Yes, certainly. I mean, the big why is square one season. So we'll open to all of our lives, no matter our economic status, no matter our generation, no matter our gender, gender, we all end up at a point where we take two steps forward. And sometimes you're like, Man, I'm back where I started, or I'm certainly not where I thought I would be. When those moments happen. They're not seasons to just wait for the future, you can still shape your future. And I offer in the book, there are four specific areas or things to approach when we call in the book, returning to your core, and core is an acronym for this. evaluating your commitments, commitments are all about your energy, where's your energy going? I talked about that just a moment ago. The second one is owning your outlook, right? That is very easy, in seasons where things didn't work out deal, whether it's been in a leadership initiative, corporate leadership, personal life, to just kind of start to inherit the ideas of others and not to own your outlook. The third one is to build your resilience. I believe that resilience, you know, these often say, either you have it or you don't, I actually believe that resilience is something that can be cultivated, in every person, and in every leader, when properly steward it. And so I think we actually, I think that's one of my favourite sections, because I think all leaders of leaders need to be working on cultivating resilience in today's next generation leader. And then the fourth area of the book is managing emotion. Look, we all have them. And so the question is not are you going to have emotions? The question is, are your emotions going to manage you? Or are you going to manage them? And so those four sections of the book, just kind of give us a roadmap again, talked about it at a personal level in January, and then in the fall really excited, releasing a leadership edition, because we're all leading people through the development of these as well. And I think he's going to be really excited. The book is on Amazon, you can grab it there. And And certainly, we would love your support as well.
David Mckeown 8:13
Yeah, we'll put that on that as well, and put the link in there. People can grab that. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 8:19
Great. I love that. I love the sound of it. So obviously, you mentioned that you've got the leadership kind of edition coming out in the fall. But what else are you excited about at the moment, Werner?
Vernon Gordon 8:35
What my kids are learning how to swim as we speak. So I'm really excited about that. Because my wife cannot swim. And that means every time we're on a water thing, anything, I can never just sit down and relax. So just thought I'd put that out there personally for certain. But no, I'm also excited about just this season in the life of the Church in the kingdom. One of the things I think that the pandemic the global pandemic has done is is given a lot of leaders permission to try. And I just would encourage every leader, you know, if there was ever that, and certainly I don't, I don't want to diminish the circumstances that preceded this season. And I'm not downgrading the impact that this has had on people's lives. We have lost people in our Church and in our family as a result of the global pandemic. But one of the things I think as an organisational leader that I want every leader to know is that people are more open, I believe, than ever, for us to try something new. And so this is a season to be leveraged. And I like to say it like this if I'm being completely honest. To our staff, I say blame the pandemic they were trying this is what we learned in the pandemic, we we want to take all this stuff we learned and all these these, these new technology we got and all these ways in which we approach things Let's not lose all of that, just because we can get back to some return to normalcy. So I'm excited about that permission to innovate for all of us. And obviously, lastly, just really excited about the book. But also I think they said, Dave, and Nathan, I don't think I told you guys this. But actually, in the fall, I'll be over in the UK doing a book tour, be able to speak, do some leadership conferences. I'm preaching at a couple of churches, I'll be there for about 12 days. So I think it would be a tragedy, if we don't connect. Maybe we can certainly make something happen while while I'm on that side of the pond, and I'm really excited about that time, as well, and how God is using this work to help leaders and people shape the future, no matter what season They're
David Mckeown 10:52
awesome. Well, you will be more than welcome to the UK. And I'm sure it's going to be an exciting trip for you. Hey, Vernon, you've said some of the things you're excited about what's what's the stuff that's challenging you at the moment? What are you challenged about?
Vernon Gordon 11:07
Yeah, you know, change fatigue, right? Is been the first thing that comes to mind. Anytime you love innovation, you also have to be extremely humble enough to listen to your team. And to those who lead when they say, Hey, I can't handle any more change right now. There's a author named Todd Bowles singer, who writes a quote, and I'm paraphrasing a bit. But he says, healthy change is about in leadership is about disappointing people at a rate that they can absorb. And so I think that's one of the things that I am challenged with, is that, if I'm being completely honest, is that I've probably tried so many things over the last couple of years, that I'm needing to say, hey, we're not going to try anything else. For the, for the rest of the year. So I would encourage any innovators out there, pace yourself, right. And that's something I'm challenged with a change fatigue, I would also say, just challenged with the idea. And we talked about the nonprofit as well. You know, I grew up in an extremely diverse background. So I've talked about my cancer story. But another extremely formative part of my childhood learning was that I had an extremely diverse family. And my mother, you know, didn't meet her real father. So she was about 18 years old. And so my my grandfather, who was a white man from Nashville, Tennessee, my black grandmother, the first year that interracial marriage was actually legal in the whole state of Virginia. They were really courageous. And my mom had three siblings, and her two youngest siblings, my grandmother and grandfather had together so they're about racial. One of my uncles married a woman from Sierra Leone, West Africa, another one married woman from Puerto Rico. So we'd like to say our holidays were always confusing when it came to food because we had all the cuisines. But one of the things that I really would say that I'm challenged with, and I would even maybe use the word a burden, at a heart level, is just ensuring that we continue to keep the conversation around cultural unity and kingdom unity at the forefront. I just don't want us to lose heart of that, that God has created us to be one kingdom. And, and so the mosaic project has been an intentional attempt to curate those environments, so that we don't lose sight of a kingdom, you know, a kingdom divided is a kingdom, you know, against itself. Can't stand against the real enemy. And so, so certainly, that is something that I'm just constantly challenged with, and, but also, you know, it, you know, prayer for leasing, and God continue to lead us forward as the body of Christ all around the world.
David Mckeown 13:54
Yeah, I love that. I love that, that, that sense of all nations working together. You know, that's, that's a, it's a very, very big thing, very biblical thing. And, you know, something we really are passionate about, as well. You know, just thinking of that idea. All nations are all welcome. And that's the great thing behind the really, yeah, fantastic. I love that project. You
Nathan Benger 14:15
Thank you. Really great. One of the questions we love to ask towards the end of our conversation. Vernon is who's been the greatest inspiration to you and why? Apart from Jesus, by the way apart from Jesus, I'd say Jesus, we get that one. Okay.
Vernon Gordon 14:37
Let me see, you know that, that's really tough, and I'm certain that I don't know if others do this, but I'm going to cheat and I'm gonna give you a descriptor of a body of people. My parents certainly have had an impact, but I always say my grandparents. And really, when I say my grandparents, I say all of them. I just spoke about the courage of one set of my grandparents. But no On the other side, I had another grandfather, who had just a storied legacy, and leadership in the community, and just was one of those people who I'm a third, I'm his namesake. And his impact on community really helped me to process this idea that the gospel is not only seen on Sundays. But even the more it seemed Monday through Saturday that more people were encouraged and brought hope, from His presence on a Thursday and then a Friday, and they were on his work on a Sunday. And so I would say those persons have deeply formed and framed. You know, my grandparents have deeply formed your frame, my courage, and, and to innovate, as well as just my heart for people beyond the four walls of the building. They did such a phenomenal job, and I stand on their shoulders, and hopefully honour their legacy as well. Is the whole
David Mckeown 16:02
great answer that a fantastic, it's just great to hear your story, gritty sharing. And sounds like you just did an amazing job. With the team across there. We always have this bonus question ready to answer? Well, we'll put it in, we'll ask you, and who knows what will happen? So the bonus question is this. What is the one question No one is asking you that you wish there would? And what is your answer to that question?
Vernon Gordon 16:30
Man, what is the one question?
David Mckeown 16:32
That's why it's a bonus one.
Vernon Gordon 16:36
Oh, my goodness. You know, I wish people were asking a question about. Here's, here's how I want to free that I had to make about how I wanted to say, I wish people were asking the question about where the Church is headed, not where it was. I think that when we look at the Old Testament, the example that most comes to mind for me is when the people of Israel are travelling through this wilderness season, they said that the cloud would represented the presence of God was settled on the front of the tip. And then whenever it would lift, and Trenton and transition, they would break camp. And they would go to where it is. And then whenever it settled, they would set up camp, and they would stay for as long as it settled. And I think it is very representative of the time we're living in today. In that I wish more of us were asking where is the Church headed Wayne Gretzky had this famous quote, as a hockey player, some of you may have heard it before. And he talks about what made him a great hockey player was he never skated to where the puck was He skated to where the puck was going. And and I think the cloud is moving. I think God is moving. I think that, you know, the work of God is not just in the past, but it's in the future. And I think the same way Jesus came and innovated the way we could disciple others. I think we need to really be asking the question, what does next generation discipleship look like? Not just what worked for us and what worked for those who preceded us? So my, my solution to that is asking that question by again, I two things I would always say, curate conversations that invite unknown voices to the room for unfamiliar voices to the room. We just did a series of focus groups in our own congregation. And we intentionally invited people who've only been in our Church one year, people who have been in our Church for five years or more people who have been in our Church since the beginning. And the heart for that was they all have a different vantage point. And some of their voices were brand new, until we say curate conversations, that invite those unfamiliar voices to the table. You never know what you're going to learn and don't be afraid to be challenged in that way. And then the second thing I would say to that question of like, what I wish people were asking about the future generation is, let's be very mindful to not make sure to have the next step, the next generation needs to be a part of the Church of now. Because they are engaging with the world at a pace, and at a rate that far exceeded previous generations. And what used to be you could connect with them at 18, you now better connect with the MIDI. So we got to find ways to integrate the next generation into the fabric of our Church church's mission, and not just as an accessory to our church's mission. So it would be the two things I would say to that question right now.
David Mckeown 19:27
Awesome. Awesome.
Nathan Benger 19:31
Yeah, really great. Really great. Well, Vern, and we want to thank you so much for being part of the church explained podcast today. And it's been so good to chat with you Vern and around Church but also around innovation and I know leaders listening to this will have so much to take away so big thank you, Fern for being with us today and want to thank all of our listeners today. And remember if you want to support what we do then share subscribe. Leave a review, however, are you consuming this content then please do that. Also share it with someone that you may know that this conversation would benefit them. And don't forget, we've got all of our free resources at IKON dot Church forward slash open and you can get signed up for exclusive free contact content and get access to that. So we look forward to seeing you next soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
