CEP SEASON THREE EP: 24 - WITH GUEST ERIC MORRIS
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
In this episode, Pastor Eric Morris of Victory City Church in Texas offers valuable insights on transforming an established church and preparing it for future growth. He provides practical strategies that can be applied in various church or ministry settings, provided there is a desire and determination to implement them.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. I'm Dave.
Nathan Benger 0:09
And I'm Nathan. And were the hosts of your podcast for today. And we've been joined by Eric Morris a little bit about Eric, before we get to hear from him. Pastors Eric and Natalie have a passion for every person to find Jesus. They believe that every person has a place and a purpose here. And their lead. They are lead pastors of a Church, I'm pretty sure it's called victory City Church. And they have a heart to create a Church that looks like heaven, full of ages and all backgrounds. And they know that the local Church is the hope of the world. So Eric, so great to have you with us on the podcast.
Eric Morris 0:48
Yeah, it's great to be here, guys. Thanks. Hey, well,
David Mckeown 0:52
we want to find out a little bit about you. You've been leaving the Church for a few years. But we always like to find out a little bit about your faith journey. Or maybe if you could share that with our listeners, it's a great question, because people like to find out about personal lives and personal stories. So if you're up for sharing maybe a little bit about your background, your family location, and stuff like that, that would be fantastic. Because we know you've got four kids, as horrible for the four of them. And that sounds busy to me. Share with us, Eric, a little bit about your background story.
Eric Morris 1:25
Well, thanks so much. Yeah, I've been married for 17 years. I got married at 22. And Natalie is, is beautiful and wonderful. She has, we've got she's birth four kids. They're 1311, seven, and four. And their names are Ella, Winston, Josephine, and Malcolm. And, you know, I'm originally from the great nation of Texas, and I love it. It's awesome. I tell people, Texas is the greatest country in America. But you know, how am I I'm, I'm third generation minister. So my grandfather was a Pastor and my father was a Pastor. And kind of how I came to faith really was in my senior year of high school, my parents. Well, actually my freshman year of high school, they resigned their Church felt the call of God to move to Scotland. And so they, they went on a it was kind of like a 10 year being at the Church and like, Hey, thanks for we'll send you anywhere in the world Pastor, where do you want to go? My father was a Church historian and loved kind of the the season the covenanters and the reformers and just some of the some of the great men of God that's come out of Scotland. And so he took a trip was kind of gripped at the spiritual climate. And so resigned his Church and said, Hey, we're moving to Scotland. So I moved to Scotland, we, after we raised the money, did all the things moved to Scotland and little town outside of Glasgow called Hamilton. And so we started a Church planter Church there, I went to the local Grammar School. And, you know, and it was kind of one of those moments where I grown up around Church and growing up in Texas, you know, you're kind of insulated in kind of Christian communities, or at least I was, and so you never really had to own your faith, you never had to really, like, reason with it, explain it. And so I started playing with a local rugby team. And, you know, guys are like, Well, what, why are you? Why are you in Scotland? Like, why would you come here? And I was like, Well, my parents were missionaries. And, and really, that became began conversations around faith that I was, you know, unequip to have I, you know, it was kind of I was a cultural Christian, not, not somebody who actually own their faith and, and I remember talking to my parents, I was like, I feel like, I can't explain the Bible to them. And one day, one of my parents was like, it's just because you don't know it. And I was like, Well, okay, they're like, how can you explain something you don't know. So I don't have a massive like conversion story, except for somebody who just began to just go like, okay, if I'm going to, if I'm going to be a follower of Jesus, I need to understand his word just got in his word is my heart was warmed and transformed. And I began to share my faith with my friends. And, and I would say that, that that was the time where I was like, Okay, this is this is, this is me, this is me. I'm a believer, I'm leaned in. And I was playing rugby at the time and had maybe some opportunities to continue playing, but God had different plans. And I went to Bible school and not really sure whether I wanted to be a Pastor, but missionary kids got 50% off tuition. So I was like, Well, okay, you know, like, I'll start there. I'll start there, and then we'll go and when I was there, I just I started serving in a local Church. I was, I was, I was the team leader for the youth Pastor. Your team. So it was it was lots of glamour in that. Basically, we set up and tear down, tore down chairs. But it was in it was in that process of just serving the local Church. I was just in it, I was serving the local Church, and God just began to speak to me. And you know, I was one of those things if I kept feeling a call, and I remember going home to Scotland, when my parents were still there, and I was explaining to my parents, I was like, Hey, I feel like I'm called to ministry. And my dad was like, now you're not you're not, you're not called the ministry. No, I know I am. And it was about a six month process of me going, No, I like and I remember the kind of that last conversation I had was like, I became a little angry and frustrated. I was like, No, I'm, I'm telling you like, I feel like God's calling me into ministry. And he said to me, he flipped it. And he basically said, You got to know your call, because a lot of things will try to convince you that you're not. And if I could have convinced you that you're not, it wasn't a call. And I don't know that that's the greatest parenting but it definitely stuck with me. So often running in and I've been I've been doing it doing it for 21 years now. Wow.
David Mckeown 6:17
Great to hear that story. The connection was Scotland. Yeah. Well done. I guess that's where the football comes at. You we just been talking before. Yeah, we went on to the podcast, some of your love for football. For those in America, of course, soccer, football, real people. Paul, would you say football? Okay. So yeah, great, great. Connection. But yeah, tell us tell us a little bit about your family then. Because you've mentioned you're married. You got four kids, what else you want to tell us about your amazing wife?
Eric Morris 6:49
Oh, my. Yeah, my wife, my wife, my wife works with work with me at the Church, which is, which is an awesome opportunity. And we love that she kind of handles she oversees kind of our care department as well as our creative department. So she has oversight on that and then helps us with our generosity track. So kind of our large capacity donors, she helps and develops a relationship with them and cares, cares for them. And so it's been it's been awesome to do that. You know, marriage. Marriage is amazing. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Harder than building a Church harder than writing a message having a really strong healthy marriage while in ministry together. I feel like if, if, if if that's all I do is have a good healthy marriage and raise great kids, man, and All right, I've at least one I've at least won the cup. League Cup, maybe? Maybe not. Maybe not the Champions League, but but I've got a trophy on the wall. So no, it's it's been it's been great. It's been it's been a really good time.
Nathan Benger 8:05
Awesome. Well, Eric, we'd love to know what you do for fun. So is there anything that you love to do for fun?
Eric Morris 8:12
Yeah, I've recently picked up golf. My, my wife, when I took the Church, you know, I was I was working seven days a week, I was just grinding and I wasn't a very happy person. And so she was like, You need a you need a hobby. And I was like, Okay, well, yeah. What do you suggest? And she goes, there's a golf course. literally across the street from our house. She was like, what have you played golf? And I was like, you realise golf is like a four hour five hour endeavour. And she was like, Yeah, it's fine. Go. And at that, at that moment, I was like, I don't know whether to be worried. Like, you're like, is there a male? Is there a mailman here? What's going on? And she was like, no, no, it's fine. Like, just just go play, you need the time away. Now. I'm, I, you know, as golf, it's extremely frustrating. And then I'm highly competitive. And I'll play with guys, and I do not care what they play. I don't care what they shoot. I'm not trying to beat them. It's just one of these things. I'm just trying to get better myself. And it's fun, you get outside, I'm able to share the gospel. In fact, I played last night, and I got partnered with a guy and I had four hours just to share the gospel with him. And so I got his number afterwards, invited him to Church put him in a group message with some other guys at the Church because he's got he moved here six months ago, has no friends, no community, he's like, you know, I just work and and so I said, Man, did you should come to come to Church with me? And he's like, Well, I go, Well, there's two girls and there's good good dudes to hang with. And so but no, it's it's one of those opportunities where I can just meet and I can connect with people and It's not a staff meeting or, you know, stuff like that. So it's good. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 10:05
It's the pastor's the pastor's right. Yes. To play golf. Yeah. Yeah. Seems it seems they all we all do it. Well, most of us anyway, I said, Dave, I don't know. Well,
Eric Morris 10:18
I used to play indoor. And I, I, I strained both of my hamstrings. So I played indoor, indoor football. And so it was like, you know, I think I'm gonna, I don't want to go through that again. You know?
David Mckeown 10:32
Something a bit later. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for sharing a little bit about your family. Background. Hey, we know you've been at the Church. I think for a few years, I think I chatted with you off line. A little while back, I want to view maybe just share a little bit about that journey at Victory City Church. What what were the challenges you faced when you first arrived? And how did you overcome those challenges?
Eric Morris 10:58
Yeah, well, I took over the Church, April 1 2020. So right as COVID was going to, you know, inhumanity and you know, all the narratives were the worst, you know, this is gonna be he's gonna kill millions of people, which it has taken quite a few lives. And it's tragic, but, but certainly, the narrative was like, Oh, this is this is world ending. I stepped in to a Church, in the middle of that, and so you can understand the challenges that that would have brought on. But you know, as somebody who's just kind of, I wouldn't say I'm a Church historian, but I've definitely studied the Church at least, and, you know, in every season of crisis, whether it's war, whether it's plague, you know, whether it's a depression, the Church has always been constant. And, you know, we just took the opinion of going, we are going to be there for people, and we're going to minister to people, we're going to reach people in this really dark time, where everybody's stressed out where everybody's just angry. And, you know, all the political tension in America was something that was just just wild. And so whether out of ignorance or Holy Spirit, boldness, we just got after it, we kind of had a mindset of going COVID is not an excuse to not reach people. And and we began having, you know, services pretty quickly. And we did online, and we made all those things available for people that wasn't, if you stayed at home, we didn't shame you. If you came to Church, we weren't, you know, we we didn't honour you more, you know, it wasn't like you, okay, you're the superhero. It was going, Hey, we have these things available. And what we found, honestly, was that in the empty nester community, the, you know, I would say 60, and above. Those are the people that were most at risk. But they were the ones most willing to come to Church because they were lonely. And there were, you know, I have no other human contact, and, you know, my, all the things. And so when we opened up, we didn't have a Sunday and still haven't had a Sunday without a guest or a salvation since then. And yeah, so it was one of those things. That was the COVID thing. The other challenge was, you know, I took over a Church that was 34 years old. And so is a cultural change, as well, kind of like, you know, from a vision mission, strategy. So I was really clear what our mission was, but then provided clear handles to unpack that mission. So you know, you got missions that are like love God love people, they were called to love. Okay, that's amazing. I love that. But what does that look like practically? And what are the how does that actually translate to real life. And so our mission is We exist to help every person take a step closer to Jesus. So we broke it down really molecular, like, Hey, man, for somebody to come to Church for the first time, that's a step for somebody to you know, bring a Bible at you. That's a step. And we began to just really tell the stories of the steps. And so that people could lean into something, they could grab a hold of something. And then we begin to hear narratives of like, you know, people come to me, Pastor Eric, I took a step for the first time and I'm like, Well, what was it? I shared my faith this week? I've never done it before. You know, and when it felt like, especially in a Church that had been, you know, 34 years old. You can kind of get complacent, you can get comfortable. It's kind of like, okay, here's where, you know, this is where we've always done it. And so for us, it was going no, we're not done. Hey, there's still mission. Yeah, there's still people to reach and here's some practical things, right? Like, it's not just pie in the sky. And that really helped us get through I mean, you know, like I can go down the list of like all the other kind of little things we did like we Had we had a really strong, we had a really strong culture of tardiness at our Church. And so like one of the little smaller practical things was, you know, and we've got a room that seats about 400. And, and you would have people that would just show up, they would show up 45 minutes into the message and show up 35 And you know, and so it just led to this culture of just kind of laissez faire, kind of, I'll show up when I want to. And so we started shutting the doors when I started preaching. And like, we wouldn't let you in. Which, you know, I remember being in London and and showing up late for a play on the west end. And they said, No, we can't let you in until intermission. And I thought to myself, listen, if a if a West End Play, that's, that's the way it's the West End, right? I'm trying to get that right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, the Western play. If they're not going to let me in, you know, because of the sake of the those listening in his respect for what's going on on the stage. And not that the stage is the priority, but but it was an honouring of what was going on. And, and I remember, we shut the doors, and there was, there was a few people that, you know, got upset. But again, linking it back to vision of going, we don't want it to be a distraction in the GOP, when the gospel is being shared for people, and it was like, you know, suddenly, we didn't have a tardy problem anymore. Because you just have a few stories, you have a few moments where you go, Hey, we're going to value this, this is what we're going to do. And you know, I had a few people, no one's going to come to our Church, this is going to be terrible. And then in six months, we had grown by 200 people. And I was like, hey, just trust me, like, would you value the proper things? And then you actually stand by it. It gives people clarity, and then they can understand, okay, this is who we are, you know. And what I find is guests are never late. Guests are usually early. So typically, I'm offending the people that's been there for 20 years. And, you know, they're, they're kind of coasting. So I don't know if that's too frank. But that's some of the challenges.
David Mckeown 17:13
Yeah, we'd like to detail. Yeah, we do. Because it helps leaders think differently. Doesn't really Yeah,
Nathan Benger 17:18
it does. Does. You mentioned some of like the strategies, maybe even the practical things about bringing those changes. What were the big focuses for you and what what were even some of the things that you had to ignore around those things?
Eric Morris 17:35
Yeah, big, big focus was I had to get Sunday, right. So if Sunday doesn't work, nothing works. Sunday, Sunday is the feeder, it is the it is the thing that makes groups work. It's the things that make teams work, outreach work, all the other offshoots. And so what we really focused on was going we've got to create a compelling, but friendly culture on a Sunday morning. So we really leaned into our service planning. So okay, so if our service is 70 minutes, we're cutting any waste, we're thinking in detail through every moment. And then on our lobby, and our guest experience our killed children's check in. Honestly, for about a year, it was Sunday has to work. This is a silly saying, but we used to say Sunday's got a slap, like, it's gotta like, it's got to hit you know, and, and from, from the worship, to the message to those hosts moments, to all those little details, to create something where it's like, I want to be here this is there's a presence in the room. They fought through these things. They're friendly. And, you know, for us, you know, people would come to you have x, y, and you have this ministry, do you have this? Now, we don't have that. And probably for the first 18 months, I would say all we did was Sunday. You know, do you do community events? No, we don't do community events right now. And we had people leave our Church because they were looking for that. And, you know, do you have a youth ministry? Now? We don't have a youth ministry right now. You know, do you have men's now we don't have Men's Ministry, we have Sunday, and that's where your youth will be ministered to. And that's where you as a man will be ministered to. And that was really, really difficult for me. Because it's never fun to see people that you're like, Man, I really liked them. And they're like, now we're gonna go somewhere else. But what that allowed us to do is you know, sometimes you you see the five leaves, but you missed the 50 that came and and so for us, it was like one of those things of going what's what's the first priority and if we get this right, then we can layer in the next step. So I've been the Pastor for since April. was 2020. And my youth Pastor starts July 1. So I've waited three years to basically launch that. And, and that's taking us from 80 people to 950 people. So, so that's kind of the arc is like that, that delay, you know, typically guys are like, Oh, we gotta get this we gotta get and it's like, no, no, if you have something that that works, it will like if your Sunday works or whatever the priority is for you. If that works, you'll win. You don't have to, you don't have to add the buffet. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 20:38
I wonder if you just maybe share a little bit around, you know, like your thinking of why, why that was your focus? Because I guess I guess, you know, seeing the five go, whilst difficult in the moment, you know why you're doing that.
Eric Morris 20:59
So, one thing I say to my team, and I try to think through is, I only have the capacity to solve a finite amount of problems. And there are certain problems that will, if you solve them, they'll actually serve solve other problems, rather than trying to go through and put all the little fires out. So, so one of the things was, maybe we don't have enough volunteers, okay. If I can solve a compelling weekend service, what that actually does is it creates something that people are attracted to, they like to be a part of, and they see the value in it, and then they're gonna want to get involved in something that has value that so by solving the Sunday problem, we actually were able to solve the volunteer problem, we were able to solve the invitation problem, we were able to solve kind of that youth problem because teenagers start. So it was one of those things of going, I can't, if I can only solve one, right? If I can only solve one thing, what's the one thing that will actually solve? The other kind of smaller problems in that? I don't know if that's to theoretic like to, you know, too much theory. Another example, that of that idea of solving problems that actually solves other problems is, is with our worship team right now. I challenged our worship team to go okay, how do we level up from production broadcast in worship? And I went through the whole deal. I said, Okay, if you can only solve one problem that solves other problems, what's what's, what is that going? And they went away, they came back and they said, Okay, here's what we want to do. We in no way do we want to write an album, or be this worship force, that's not my heart, it's good. They said, We have a goal that we want to be able to post monthly worship clips on our youtube channel, and we want to average 2000 views. And I go, Okay, what problems does that solve? And they said this, if we're going to post it on youtube, it challenges our band to come prepared. Okay, so we solved the problem of having the band and vocals be fully ready. Like you're not showing up Sunday going, Okay, now, what song are we doing? It solves our production team, to be able to have their levels right, really lean in, it solves the problem of our broadcasts, making sure we're getting the right shots we're staying in, because this is going to go on youtube. And then it solves the problem of motivation. Because now every one of those team members are able to look and go, we did this, right. Like we put this on youtube. And, and so what that it was kind of one of those things of going, if I can solve that problem, if I have that goal, then everything else lifts on it. And we've just seen that work. We've seen that work across you know, all of our ministries, you know, with our kids department, their problem they wanted to solve was retention. And so I think we were at like 17% retention. And they basically said we want to we want to be above 30%. Retention. And okay, so if a kid is going to want to come back, I've got to connect well to the families, I've got to create a really value experience. I've got to be friendly to the kid. And we're now at 38% retention when it comes to our families who come so so does that make? Does that make sense? Like okay, if I solve that, then it's going to help me. So rather than going like where's all these little fires, I got to put out and problems. It's kind of getting above it. And that's the other thing. This is a little side deal. I knew my numbers. Like I knew my numbers and not just the count like I knew okay, what are my guest counts? What am I salvations what's the percentage you give? Like I wanted to know my numbers because data tells a story. And and it's one of those things that it can't be anecdotal, right because sometimes pastors we can get anecdotal, right we can be like, Hey, God moved I'm like, Yeah, but we for the past. Five weeks we've had, you know, we've averaged one guest a Sunday. Okay, what's what's going on here? You know? So so that that those things are pretty important to me.
David Mckeown 25:12
I love that love that idea of focusing on the one thing that yeah, fantastic, because that really does help leaders to think through, what's the one thing they need to focus on, rather than focusing on lots of things? Excuse me, I know, you mentioned this idea of raising of leaders and volunteers and a desire to delegate to them. Can you share a little bit about that with our listeners today? And our people? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about what you did there.
Eric Morris 25:44
Yeah, I think. So for me, the big thing on when you're raising up leaders, what I found is that the key point leader has to tap the person on the shoulder. You've got to walk into the lobby, tap them on the shoulder, get a coffee, and then make a compelling ask, Hey, Dave, I'd love for you to lead this. And here's what that's going to look like, I see talent and USC ability in you. And here's why. Here's what I've seen, because you can't just use fluff. You can't just say those words. And I will say, Hey, I've noticed that you've invited a friend, three different times this past quarter, you've got a heart to build the Church. And so the personal ask is probably the biggest thing. It's something I literally did a talk on yesterday with our staff, no matter the size, we cannot get above the personal ask. Because sometimes, you know, you think Oh, the Church announcement will do it, you know, the the new believers class, the growth track, that that is purely supplemental, the biggest thing is the personal ask. So in identifying leaders, and I do practical things, so like, I will give my staff a five or a three by five note card. And I will say at the end of Sunday, I want five names and numbers that you've connected with, that you're getting together this week with as a way of going and this isn't the same people you talk to every Sunday. And then we do the same thing with our leaders. So we go alright, you've got to find three people you've never connected with get their name and phone number so you can get a coffee, you know, or whatever. And we don't have pubs here, but you know, yeah, which is which is a shame and all the and all the pubs here so kitschy it's like this is the real thing. What do you do? But yeah, but But going through and going. And I think that ultimately goes to the next point on raising up leaders. And Craig Groeschel, I think you said this. But basically, if you give people task, you create followers, if you give them responsibility, you create leaders, we we give our leaders responsibility over areas of the ministry, and I tell my leaders, I have a great mop, I can clean up a mess. But I'd rather you make a mess than not do anything at all. And so that's, you know, some of those things, so that personal ask, and then giving responsibility are two of the big, big things. But then the other side is this is you have to constantly, I mean incessantly to you're sick of it, you have to talk about culture and vision on a regular basis. If I mean, you, you're you're so tired of it, because you've talked about it. You know, I've talked about this every week, but the person in the seat, they're thinking about their their job, they're thinking about their kids, they're thinking about all the other things, you know, they're thinking about how Arsenal didn't win the league, they're, they're thinking about all those things. And, and it's one of those things of going, they're not thinking about it, but you have to cast that vision. And I think a lot of pastors, a lot of guys think until I have the perfect medium to be able to do that, then I just I will start. But my thing is is like early early days, I would just do it on my phone, I would literally record a video. And I would sit and I would make it you know, like I'd make it five minutes. And I'd have an unlisted youtube video. And I'd send the link to my team. And it was just me on a camera. It was no production value. But it was just one of those things. I'm just going to keep talking about it and keep talking about it. So like I think if we want to jump into some more that, like those kind of from start to finish, right, like you've got to personally Yes, you've got to give them responsibility. And then you've got to continue. I mean, always talking about it.
Nathan Benger 29:55
Now Yeah, I mean that whole thing around the person Alaska, I think In attendance, it can be, you know, you get your systems and your structures in place. And it's like, oh, let's rely on them. And we're expecting those to do the work when actually the personal ask is, is, is the most powerful? I wonder if you've got any, any, like stories around that whole personal ask that could encourage us today?
Eric Morris 30:20
Yeah. So there's a guy in our Church. His name is David Gruhn. David is a successful business guy. He's, he's young, young, 30s, low 30s. And he'd been coming to our Church. And I think it's one of those things of like, as a leader, you want to you want to always like you want to be you don't want to be with people anyways. So they can have the blinders and you're so focused, and so. So I've got a guy on my team, and his name is G, I'm going to link the two in just a second. And I said, Gee, I want you with me every Sunday. And I said, there's going to be people that are coming up to me, just because the nature of what I do, they're going to want to talk to me, I said, your job is to look for people I'm not usually connected to and make sure they that I get to them so that you're not going to go and bring them to me, you're going to take me and bring him to them. And so by giving GE that responsibility, all GE did every Sunday was look for people that I wasn't connected with. Hey, saw David. I went over to David, he said, Hey, you got to meet this guy. So I went over to David began to talk with David David, how's it going? Nice to meet you how long you've been coming to the Church. He goes, we've had we've been coming here for a year. And I was like a year, like what? And so I said, okay, cool. Well, tell me about yourself, and you can't begin to tell me, you know, all the things and we ended up getting together, we had a meal together. And it was at the meal. And there's got to be some EQ, there's got to be some awareness. And so I'm listening. I'm, I'm actively I'm trying to listen to his passions. Okay, where does he really lean in on? And as I was listening to those things, just at the dinner table, I make the ask, I said, David, have you? Have you considered joining our team, like joining the volunteer team? And he was like, Well, I don't I don't you know, and I go, can I just ask you? Can I ask you why you have it? You've heard the announcements. Hey, do you want to get involved? And he got in his way? He said, he goes, Well, I just assumed that like, I just see so many people on Sunday already serving. Like, I assume y'all guys are good. I got David, bro. We are not man. Like I mean, we're not terrible, right? We're not We're not falling apart. I said, but there's a specific spot for you. And I began to detail it. I said, and that's the thing. I didn't make it general. I didn't say yeah, just joined the team. I said, Hey, I think this is where a spot for you. Here's what it would require. Here's some of the personality types that this and I think you fit that. And here's this dude, David, that that probably sells 20 $15 million of product every year. And he still likes the idea of that somebody saw something in him and makes the ask. So I think I think when you you, you hear those things, and you're leaning into that you're kind of aware of that. You know, there's something that can really happen, that you pull people in
Nathan Benger 33:17
great, no, so good. And it's been great to chat with you, Eric. Even though you're a man united fan. I think this this podcast has been amazing. And that's a wrap for the church explained podcast this time. It's been great to be together. And if you could rate review, subscribe wherever you're consuming this content and also share it with anyone you know that it will bless and help in their world. But that's been the church explained podcast and we look forward to seeing you next time.
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