#S4 EP4: Simon McIntyre On - Do We Need A Mind Shift In Our Spiritual Leadership?
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
SEASON 4: EPISODE 04 OF THE CHURCH EXPLAINED PODCAST
Welcome to part two with Simon McIntyre, one of the key leaders of the C3 Church.
In this thought-provoking episode, Simon McIntyre discusses the importance of spiritual leadership and the need for a shift in mindset among church leaders. He emphasises the significance of modelling reliance upon the Holy Spirit and disdain towards worldly leadership principles. Simon also highlights the value of diving deeper into Scripture as a group of leaders rather than solely relying on leadership books and techniques.
Throughout the conversation, he challenges the traditional approach to preaching and encourages leaders to prioritise living out biblical principles from Monday to Saturday, not just on Sundays. This insightful episode prompts reflection on the true essence of leadership and discipleship within the church.
We hope you enjoy
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Dave (00:00.907)
Welcome to the Church Explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your church. Today I'm joined by Simon McIntyre who is, a little bit of a bio about him, originally from Australia, but he lived in the UK in London for 11 years, but now is in Miami, what a great place to go to. He is the overseer of the C3 Church regional areas, UK, Europe and now in the USA as you've said there, with your wife.
Valerie, is that correct? I like to get that right, just in case there. So that sounds fantastic. You were originally one of the members of the plant by Pastor Phil Pringle in the 1980s of the C3 Church. But of course now you've been continuing in this sort of C3 global team member. You've got three children, nine grandchildren, but no pets. Well, well done on that one.
Simon McIntyre (00:32.13)
That's correct.
Dave (00:57.559)
You've got a Bachelor of Theology from Sydney and an MA in Theology also from the UK. You've got a Private Pilots Licence with Aerobatics. That's really interesting. I think we make it into that a little bit this afternoon. And you've written four books and you've sent in there. Unfortunately, none of them is a bestseller, but maybe that could change after this podcast. You never know, Simon. But listen.
Simon McIntyre (01:23.716)
Well, you never know.
Dave (01:25.447)
Hey listen, it's great to have you on the show with us. A big welcome. Hire things where you are in Miami at the minute. Hot, cold, what's it like there?
Simon McIntyre (01:36.506)
Dave, it's always hot. So right now, when I got up this morning to go for my beach walk, it was 31 degrees and with about 84% humidity, and that's a nice day. So in the last few weeks, the temperature has been up to 116.
Dave (01:49.759)
I like it.
Dave (01:59.26)
Wow. And so I guess for you moving from London to Miami, it must not have been much of a problem really. You must have just jumped at the chance, did you?
Simon McIntyre (01:59.906)
So.
Simon McIntyre (02:11.005)
Well, it reminds me of Sydney more than London does. Ha ha.
Dave (02:14.755)
Well, we'll say no more. Hey, but listen, so good to have you here with us. I shared a little bit about your bio there, but I just wonder Simon, could you share a little bit more about your faith story, your ministry journey, a little bit about your background and family, and of course, what you do for fun. Now, you may have already covered that in the Private Pilots License, but maybe you've got some other things you do for fun. We will find out on the show today.
But Simon, why don't you just kick us off and just tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Simon McIntyre (02:46.438)
Okay, thank you Dave. Look, when I was 19 years old I had the fairly typical radical conversion to Jesus. I was a drummer in a rock band. We used to play music like Santana, Pink Floyd, etc. Not as well as those bands, but we did our best. And then I had this conversion that all of that went and I never regretted it. It was like follow Jesus and leave everything behind and that's how it struck me and that's...
Dave (02:59.919)
Oh, yeah.
Simon McIntyre (03:16.19)
Like I said, that's what I did and I've never looked back. I joined a local church, a very small church, that coincidentally was led by a very conservative Englishman. And so my introduction to Jesus was culturally a tremendous shock because of this very conservative Pentecostal church. But never thought twice about it. It never bothered me because I'd found Jesus and a new family.
Dave (03:36.591)
Okay.
Simon McIntyre (03:44.59)
And I realised that cultural relevance only lasts one generation anyway. So that was a joy to me. In 1980 we moved into Sydney with pastors Phil and Chris. And while people say that we started the church together, I'd like to correct that. Phil started it and I was his, we were there helping. So we were there right from the very early days. I was there until 2011.
Dave (03:50.071)
Good point.
Dave (04:04.939)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (04:14.122)
My wife Helen died of cancer. So a number of years after that, I married a New York girl, Valerie. So I've lucked out twice, although a difficult interlude. And then we, from there, we moved to Miami, as I said, part of the global team. My family, who as you get older, Dave, they become...
Dave (04:21.975)
Wow.
Simon McIntyre (04:40.706)
they start to mean more and more to you, not that they ever didn't mean anything to me. So we've just returned from a trip seeing my family in Australia, and so that was both wonderful and terrible. Wonderful seeing them, terrible getting back on an aeroplane. But we will be joining them more over the next few years. For fun, what do I do for fun? Well, I don't fly anymore. It's an expensive hobby. And London, I couldn't keep my endorsements up in London because of the weather.
Dave (04:42.863)
Mmm.
Dave (04:48.279)
wonderful.
Dave (05:04.271)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (05:09.09)
You cannot do aerobatics in clouds. That's what they call, that's a short trip to a grave. But I read a lot, I love reading, I love writing. And you know, coincidentally, we travel an enormous amount, but it's never been on my, my life is, none of my life's planned out. You know, if that may touch some people, the nerve in some people, I haven't planned all this out.
Dave (05:12.847)
Ha ha ha!
Dave (05:19.158)
I hear you.
Dave (05:32.569)
Wow.
Simon McIntyre (05:38.174)
I never planned my wife dying, I never planned marrying another beautiful girl, I never planned having nine grandchildren, I never, well, maybe I did in having three children. I never planned the moves. So when we're in Europe, for instance, we travel an enormous amount and we loved Europe. Favourite spots like the south of France and Switzerland and Italy and Greece. I mean, but none of that was on my plan. We just happened to go to those places.
Dave (05:49.469)
Yeah.
Dave (05:59.547)
Mmm. Yeah, yeah.
Simon McIntyre (06:06.898)
and learn to enjoy them. So at the moment, what's my hobby? Well we have a home here in Miami and we've just purchased a home in Australia as well. So my next hobby is to help my wife not spend a million dollars on each piece of furniture.
Dave (06:24.625)
That is an interesting hobby to have. Good luck with that one. Well, it's just an interesting way for you even to approach leadership as you're sharing there. Some of it was in plans, of course some of it was intentional, but I get that sense of what you're saying there that actually as you're open to God and you're just open to what's next.
Simon McIntyre (06:29.831)
Anyway, so that's me in a nutshell. Thank you.
Dave (06:50.531)
you find yourself in different places. So you've written four books, we've mentioned that already and your latest book, I think, we wanna dive into that a little bit today if we can, some of the things in there. So the title of the new book is called Lessons in the Wilderness and that's a story of Joshua and we wanna touch on that this afternoon. So I've got a few questions around that, is that okay? Just to get this moving and to get us thinking and.
Simon McIntyre (07:15.895)
Yes.
Dave (07:18.963)
like don't be afraid to shock our audience in a good way. You know, it's a good thinking audience. I hope so anyway. But feel free just to share what's in your head and what's in your heart as well. So in your latest book, you really contrast this idea between I guess the business model of leadership and the biblical model of leadership. And as I began to think of it, it got me around this idea of
the contrast between the two, but also, like, would the church be better without a business model of leadership? What's your thoughts on that? I mean, sure, you can share a little bit more about the book as we go through as well.
Simon McIntyre (08:04.422)
I'm not inclined to throw the baby out with the bathwater, Dave. I think there are some... I think we always unconsciously are going to reflect the era we live in. And in regards to leadership and business leadership, it became very popular in the 1980s, 1990s. And so I think in some ways, we live in that world, we reflect that world, and some of it hasn't harmed us. The sense of...
Dave (08:07.928)
share.
Dave (08:24.247)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (08:32.854)
you know, less committee-led and more visionary-led. That's great. The idea that God gives a man of vision and people can gather around that. I'm a fan of that. I don't think it plays out in the New Testament quite like it does in the Old Testament for different reasons. So I don't think it's all gloom and doom. I think there's some stuff we've learned. Bill Hybels years ago said, everything is about leadership. And...
Dave (08:35.972)
Mmm.
Dave (08:47.247)
Okay.
Simon McIntyre (09:00.242)
You know, at the time it sounded very appealing, but if you look at the New Testament, it doesn't say a lot about leadership. Now it assumes leadership, and therefore you don't have to say a lot about leadership. But I think we've said too much about that. It's like everything pivots on leadership. I don't think it does. In Romans chapter 12, it's one of seven gifts, and it's in the middle of the list. It's not at the top. So I think we've pivoted too far.
Dave (09:06.814)
Mmm.
Dave (09:22.179)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (09:29.102)
toward a business mindset. And some of the things that to me would identify that are things like unilateral decision making. It sounds good when you're young, but it becomes very dangerous when you get a bit older. Success orientation, which is always about numbers and money, no matter how we divide it up, that's what it ends up being about. How much money comes in? How many members do we have? Or how many souls are saved?
Dave (09:42.766)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (09:59.41)
They are not unimportant dynamics, but I don't think they are what should drive us so much as creating disciples, Matthew 28. The business model is always chasing goals, and I know in church life where that kind of leadership is prevalent, there's very rarely a time of rest. It's always the next thing, the next goal, the next demand. And whilst a strong leader...
Dave (10:10.561)
Mmm.
Dave (10:22.243)
Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (10:28.078)
thrives on that, I think after a while the church tires of that. And I think that's borne out and within 15 to 20 years those surges in numbers do stop and we have to deal with the more boring parts of church life which may be more historically common. I think we're process and principle oriented rather than spiritually oriented. I am heartened when churches have been.
prayer at the start of things. We had one board member that once said to us in Sydney, one of the reasons I like being in this church is that you begin your board meetings with prayer. And we thought that was normal, he thought that was unusual. And I think one of my things, I wrote a fun article and it was about the Apostle Paul and why he would not be invited to leadership seminars in the Western world today. There are so many factors about him, he doesn't make the cut.
Dave (11:06.819)
Hmm.
Dave (11:11.139)
Wow.
Dave (11:22.455)
Say more.
Simon McIntyre (11:25.638)
on so many issues and yet he's the greatest, to me the greatest human in history aside from the Apostle Paul, aside from Jesus himself. So I think to counteract that we have to be more discipleship oriented, momentum should not be our primary goal, it should be the growth of the Christ-likeness in our members, that's hard work, it's long work.
Dave (11:29.502)
And date.
Simon McIntyre (11:52.734)
and it takes sometimes many years to see great fruit. But I am also heartened to see that theme is swinging back into church life. It's not disappeared.
Dave (12:02.543)
Hmm, yeah I like that idea of the discipleship in there and the spiritual, I guess people have described this as spiritual formation in people's lives. So if, like listen to what you're saying there, in one sense if you think the church is focused too much on leadership, what else do we need to focus on besides the discipleship stuff? Is there anything else?
Simon McIntyre (12:12.792)
Yes.
Simon McIntyre (12:30.979)
Um...
Dave (12:32.035)
breathes life into the church.
Simon McIntyre (12:35.458)
Well, I think things like prayer and fasting, hunger for God's word. I know this is a bit, this is not controversial, but it could be seen as a slap with churches is that our messages are often help me to have a better life. Messages, which I think are important, but they should not be the diet. I think the diet should be scripture and it's...
I find in many cases scripture is like proof text rather than foundation. So when scripture is a foundation to preaching, you bounce out of scripture. But when you're proof text, you're just finding scripture to validate your point. And I'm not sure that you can read scripture like that effectively long term. But I look, I would always swing back to discipleship, Dave. I think that's, you know, that's
Dave (13:11.117)
Mmm. Gotcha.
Dave (13:22.998)
I hear you.
Simon McIntyre (13:33.714)
It's the last words Jesus said, isn't it? Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. And also, this is unpleasant, and commanding them to obey everything I've told you. Those two words are very unpopular, command and obey. And I suspect we've softened the approach to the gospel, but here's the weirdest thing. People respond better to a higher call than a softened call.
Dave (13:35.887)
Mmm.
Dave (13:51.439)
Strong words.
Simon McIntyre (14:03.118)
for convenience sake. It's better to say, drop all and follow me. You'll have more long-term fruit out of that than add Jesus to your life so that your life is a better life. That will always end up in disappointment.
Dave (14:05.167)
Mmm.
Dave (14:17.899)
Yeah, yeah, slightly, slightly different approach there really isn't it to how many leaders and churches are being run I guess across the world and I would say not just in the UK. I mean there's a lot of a lot of areas we could go down there. What do you, what do you think as we think of some of the lessons in the book that you have written recently, you're thinking of
Simon McIntyre (14:27.544)
Yes.
Dave (14:45.431)
What do you think are the key things we can learn from his leadership for us today?
Simon McIntyre (14:50.462)
Yes, and I guess that's the point of the book. It's what were the training grounds for Joshua? One that I don't spend a lot of time on is wilderness. Everybody needs a wilderness to develop properly. Everybody needs a wilderness to battle their demons. The wilderness experience of Jesus and the wilderness experience of the people of Israel.
Dave (14:53.687)
Yeah.
Dave (14:58.916)
Yeah.
Dave (15:08.775)
Mmm.
Dave (15:12.579)
Experience. Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (15:17.974)
But I think there are three defining elements that I could find that maybe more, because there's not a lot written about Joshua, so it's not hard to find them. Number one was the faith. He had a faith test. Would he believe what God said? Or would he believe what was popular? And that's the first one, the faith test. Would, and it's also not faith as a principle, it's faith in what God has said, not faith in just pulling a rabbit out of the hat, the kind of faith.
Dave (15:20.438)
Hmm.
Dave (15:23.819)
No.
Dave (15:44.271)
Sure. Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (15:46.09)
which we've used and we have appropriated in the Western world and it's been of some value. But the real issue about faith is it's always faith in a person, Jesus, not faith in a principle. So that's the first lesson. Would he believe that what God said was possible was possible? And he said yes, it is possible in spite of the overwhelming odds that appeared before them. That's number one.
Dave (16:12.089)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (16:15.106)
the faith lesson. A person needs to agree with what God says against their own inclinations. Number two is that he served Moses for what was it 40 years. Now in our world that's a long time to serve anybody. But he served faithfully, he was in the background, he did what Moses asked, he succeeded in battle because Moses upheld them.
Dave (16:34.263)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (16:45.034)
So that's a huge issue in the book. He didn't rewrite what Moses had written. He didn't try to contemporize it. He accepted that what Moses conveyed to the people was God's word to the people. And there was a temporal issue to it with the law, but there was the eternal issue of the Ten Commandments, et cetera, et cetera. So he served, 40 years is a long time to serve. And I wonder if deep on the inside, whether Joshua
Dave (17:10.659)
Definitely.
Simon McIntyre (17:14.338)
felt that God had spoken to him, but he subserviated it to his servitude to Moses. Never lost himself, never became another man, never became Moses, but there he was for 40 years. And then the final thing is, I think it's more of a private issue, is that when he lingered in the tabernacle after Moses had left, that's really interesting. He stayed on where he could feel the presence of God.
Dave (17:18.112)
Yeah, yeah.
Dave (17:39.983)
Hmm
Simon McIntyre (17:44.298)
So he became a student of a disciple of God's presence. And I think in some Jewish rabbinical writing, that wilderness tabernacle experience about the presence was also about the word. So it wasn't just this sort of feeling of the spirit and of God's power being there, but also he incorporated the word of God into what. And I would think that a leader that is not
devoted to waiting on the Lord, devoted to prayer and scripture as deep fundamental parts of their daily routine. Then we're dealing with professionalism and we're dealing with danger and we're dealing with personality and we're dealing with giftedness and they are all dangerous if left to themselves. Giftedness I think has become almost a curse in the American church.
I cannot believe that people are being restored quickly to ministry because they've been restored. That's a long story. But it's because their gift is more important than the damage they've done to God's church. And so I'm less of a fan of that kind of restoration because it's based upon personality and gift. And oh, we need to get them back into the church until their gift needs to be re-inspired.
Dave (18:52.257)
Yeah, yeah.
Simon McIntyre (19:11.882)
forget about it, God's church has been damaged. Let's work on that first. So I think those things and combined with that he was in a wilderness where there wasn't a lot to do, there wasn't a lot of fruitfulness, there wasn't a land and that's what he lived with. And I think if you combine faith, service and a deep committed life to God's presence.
Dave (19:16.249)
Mmm.
Dave (19:26.965)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (19:40.162)
That built what Joshua was. Now Joshua made mistakes, which we can talk about if you want, but that was his foundation. And he lived to what, 110 years old? What's fascinating about Joshua is when he finally, his whole purpose was to give the people of God the land and not to build a ministry. So when he went to his latter days, he probably sat under a grapevine,
Dave (20:01.539)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (20:10.218)
some nice bread and live with his grandchildren. He did not leave an institution. He did not leave a, he left a book detailing his conquests, but he never left anything that was like Moses. He quietly faded into virtual obscurity because he had done what he'd been asked to do. Who can do that? That's a tough call.
Dave (20:14.284)
Yeah.
Dave (20:29.665)
Mmm.
Dave (20:33.027)
Yeah.
That is, and I guess that's coming back to the obedience thing, isn't it? You know, the fact that we're called to obedience and faith above all those other things. I mean, you have mentioned, Josh, you did make some mistakes. As we look at him as an example to how we should lead today, thinking of those three things, the faith that's serving, being in the presence of God.
Simon McIntyre (20:40.406)
Yes.
Dave (21:00.643)
What are the things we should avoid then? Maybe not just enjoy shoes life, but like as leaders today, we've taken on a lot of stuff as you've described there. You know, we've leaned heavy on processes and all that sort of stuff. Like there's gotta be almost like a pendulum of fact really. We've gotta get back somewhere. So we get back to those things. What are the other things we're trying to avoid do you think as leaders that would help us?
Simon McIntyre (21:26.682)
If I use Joshua as an example, one of the things he suffered from was assumption. He assumed that because one thing worked, it would work again. So when they went and took on AI, he had blood on his hands. Thirty-six families lost their fathers or brothers. And that's no small issue. And that would have caused a real eruption amongst the widows and the family members who lost those men. Because Joshua simply assumed, because it worked.
Dave (21:28.931)
brilliant.
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (21:56.662)
At Jericho it would work at AI. And so he had to be open to God's spirit for every step of the way rather than assuming that what worked yesterday will work today. And that's a big temptation to us because you've done a lot of work getting to Jericho. It's a very unusual battle plan. So then the next one looks like a piece of cake and that's where he failed. It wasn't a piece of cake.
Dave (22:09.241)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (22:24.554)
And then the reason why he failed is because he didn't recognise that there was sin of significance in the camp. And if he had asked the Lord, should we go, what do we do, the Spirit of God would have told him, go and deal with that first. And that was a terrifying consequence to that family. Oh no, hold on, that was after, was that after Jericho? Anyway.
Dave (22:31.471)
Mmm.
Dave (22:38.286)
you
Dave (22:46.136)
Hmm.
Simon McIntyre (22:52.466)
They do mix up these two, they mix up together somehow. So I think the assumption of victory, and it's like you can get a great church being built in one city, and it's dangerous to assume therefore you'll replicate that in another city on the other side of the world. And unless there's a real clear sense of the Holy Spirit saying, you need to be very careful about trying to replicate a success.
that God's Spirit gave you, not a process gave you.
Dave (23:24.819)
Yeah, I think it does make sense and I think a lot of churches that are planted these days are built on process. Like we've done that in one place, so let's repeat the same process somewhere else. And of course as you're saying that's maybe not the best method, it's more to do with that sense of being in the presence of God, finding out what is it that God wants to do in this new place.
Simon McIntyre (23:25.258)
that makes sense.
Simon McIntyre (23:40.247)
Yes.
Simon McIntyre (23:53.88)
Yes.
Dave (23:55.851)
I mean that's probably harking back a little bit, like as we've already mentioned, to more a business model of leadership, because it's all focused on processes rather than the presence of God. I mean they're not really thinking about the presence of God. And I agree with you, we're not there to throw out the baby with the bath water, we've learned a lot, we can use that stuff. But I guess it's when we lean too heavy on that stuff, and we look for success in these things.
Simon McIntyre (24:15.992)
Yeah.
Dave (24:24.055)
that becomes a dangerous and that's the assumption I guess a little bit like Josh a different context but it's the same assumption isn't it we assume it's going to work here because we do ABC and um and that's not that's not always the case is it
Simon McIntyre (24:39.602)
No, there's a good example in the States here, and I won't mention names because I have great respect for these people. They're doing a brilliant job in helping fund church planting. There's quite a few organisations here that do that. But being slightly cynical, I said to one of the representatives of this group, I met him at a conference and I said, can I ask some tough questions? He said, you're going to be Australian, aren't you? Or English. And I said...
Dave (24:48.705)
Mmm. Share.
Dave (25:06.902)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (25:09.202)
It appears to me that your church model works brilliantly in the South, where social media gathers numbers very fast. I said, can you name a successful church plant in New York or LA? And he couldn't. Because the idea that this model is pan-universalistic in its application is just wrong.
Dave (25:25.338)
Wow.
Dave (25:38.063)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (25:38.25)
I remember another group came out of the States years ago, and I'm not picking on America because I live here and there's a lot to love about living here. But I remember another group, they went all around the world trying to start some churches modelled after a very big Baptist church and they basically said to me, do you have anybody that could lead a church for us? That just doesn't work with me. You disciple people, you don't just go and buy them. But it never worked. Because what works here doesn't work there.
Dave (26:02.696)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (26:08.366)
And so that's a lesson. Can I just wind back a little bit? Another thing that Joshua failed with, do you remember the case when those men came appearing as though they had come on a long journey and they brought mouldy bread and they brought tribute? This is a comment about charismatic leaders. They tend to believe in the good in everything. It's part of their nature.
Dave (26:12.26)
Do it.
Dave (26:21.567)
Mm-mm.
Simon McIntyre (26:38.31)
a good leader, they tend to have an optimistic opinion about everybody. What Joshua needed was a good cynic that said those guys are lying, they are trying to get around you and you shouldn't listen to them. But we don't know if Joshua did have that person speaking to him. But again, if he had gone and prayed or asked for advice, somebody would have come up with there's something wrong here, something smells, and it's not just mouldy bread, there's something smells.
Dave (26:42.393)
Mmm.
Dave (26:59.235)
Mmm.
Dave (27:06.616)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (27:08.162)
there's a snake in the grass somewhere here, there's a snake in the garden. And I think one of the dangers of those charismatic leaders is they tend to have an uncommonly high appreciation of the good in people, which is part of the reason they do so well, but it's also in some cases the reason they don't do well. And if Joshua had someone with him that was cynical about human nature,
Dave (27:33.09)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (27:38.134)
and didn't just believe everything. He believed what he heard. He should have gone and asked the Lord, "'Am I hearing right?' But when you're in a mode of success and when success is galloping, it's really hard to stop and go away and pray because we start to live off the juice of former prayer. But there's a day where it doesn't work. I'd be like, imagine Jesus just
Dave (27:46.071)
Yeah, yeah.
Dave (27:56.724)
Hmm
Dave (28:04.139)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (28:07.554)
picking 12 fine looking young men from the crowd. But he chose a revolutionary, possibly murderer. He chose a hated tax gatherer. He chose this most disparate bunch of people you've ever met. And because he went up the mountain and asked God, who is it, what is it? So I go back to prayer, don't I? If you don't.
Dave (28:20.451)
Ha ha
Dave (28:34.625)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (28:35.294)
And if you don't have that rest in your soul, which rush, brushes out of the way, if you don't have a rest in your soul, you're not going to hear what the Holy Spirit says. And that's the danger of success. You start to get into this internal gallop and you can't stop anymore. And you have to stop to hear.
Dave (28:38.368)
Mmm.
Dave (28:45.827)
Mmm.
Dave (28:58.363)
Yeah, some lessons we can learn and put into our own lives. As we think of Josh's sort of approach to leadership, some of the things you've mentioned there, how do we make sense of that in our current situation? We've touched on some of it, but I wonder if there's anything else as we think of his example of leadership, or maybe stuff that's in the book that you think would be good to share with our listeners.
Simon McIntyre (29:22.75)
I didn't, I'm sorry to disappoint, I didn't go down that line so much. It may be the weakness of the book that I didn't. I did contemporise it, but not around that issue. I'm just thinking what would it be? I can't think anything more than just being open to what God says, to having the right kind of people around you. A good leader needs people that can say no, or that's stupid.
Dave (29:30.127)
Okay.
Yeah?
Dave (29:42.787)
Yeah.
Dave (29:49.506)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (29:52.07)
And it appears to me that these Old Testament leaders, they never had that kind of voice. But if you read the New Testament, you don't read of a David, you don't read of a Moses, you read of a community, you read of a people submitted to each other. I think those kind of lessons are very important for us today.
Dave (30:13.647)
Hmm. Yeah. And anything else from the book you think would be useful, do you want to draw it? It's helpful for people.
Simon McIntyre (30:25.63)
I think just aside from those three principles that were in Joshua's life, those three dynamics or life factors, the second half of the book talks about how he worked it out. That's why I called the book What I Did When No One Was Looking and what I did when no one was looking and what I did when everybody was.
Dave (30:29.013)
Yeah?
Mm-hmm.
Dave (30:36.237)
Yeah.
Dave (30:48.307)
Yeah, that's a good line there, I like that.
Simon McIntyre (30:52.906)
So, no, I think just in reading the second part of the book, I'm using contemporary examples. There's nothing that jumps out at me except it's a cheap book with a lot of words, so it's worth reading.
Dave (30:58.703)
sure.
Dave (31:05.671)
Yeah, okay, worth getting a hold of. Can I push you a little bit on the sense of just thinking of leadership and leadership teams. Let's say a church is set up and they're relying on principles and processes they've learned in leadership books and leadership money books, stuff that's out there in the business world. But they're not hearing something like this and they're trying to think, well, how do I shift, not just myself?
But how do we shift now our group of leaders from one particular model of leadership to now this more, as you described earlier, this more spiritual group of leaders? Like, what can leaders do to get from there, with their group of leaders, to here, which is gonna benefit them for the future?
Simon McIntyre (32:00.642)
Well, I think first of all, they have to model it. If they're not modeling it, discussion is going to go nowhere except discussion. So I think of a leader models reliance upon the Holy Spirit. I also think a disdain towards what the world thinks is amazing. I think that when Jesus said these very strong words, I think it was Jesus who said it. He said that.
Dave (32:03.141)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (32:30.57)
what the world loves, God despises. And I think until that sort of, until we start to say these things may have value, but ultimately they don't produce fruit, great fruit. So I think, but that's probably taken the discussion too far in one direction. I think modeling it, if I'm not modeling what I'm teaching, I might as well forget about what I'm teaching. And then secondly, I would think more,
Dave (32:53.739)
Sure.
Simon McIntyre (33:00.95)
more dedication to scripture together rather than reading books about leadership technique. Or, in the Christian world, leadership is a massive seller. I heard a really well-known speaker recently in the States. He's a multi-million dollar seller on leadership and quite a delightful person, I imagine. But I'm listening and it's like, it's just, it's like a...
Dave (33:07.599)
Okay.
Simon McIntyre (33:29.966)
It's like a prepackaged show with the right smiles and the right places. And I'm thinking like I'm not hearing the name Jesus. I'm not hearing Paul. I'm hearing clever, valuable, clever quips. I'm not hearing what Jesus says about leadership, which is always the lower road. I'm not hearing what Paul says, which
Dave (33:36.407)
Mmm.
Dave (33:50.572)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (33:59.906)
the cruciform life. I'm not hearing that. I'm hearing about being strong and visionary and taking your people to places they've never been and making sure you've got a board that's with you and they pay you properly. I'm thinking like I understand what the reaction that caused these statements, but I fear the result of where it could take us in the long run. So I'll go back to this. If we're not modelling it, we can't teach it.
Dave (34:24.591)
Hmm.
Dave (34:29.133)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (34:29.398)
But if we're modeling it, we can start to transfer it to those around us, because they'll see it. And I would rather get with a group of leaders and do a discussion on the book of Colossians than on John Maxwell's latest book. You know, I've got one of John Maxwell's latest books right in front of me, The 16 Under-Deniable Laws of Communication. I guarantee it's a great book. But it's sort of... I've got another one next to it called Leading Like Jesus. I'd rather read that one.
Dave (34:34.159)
Mmm.
Dave (34:43.98)
Yeah, yeah.
Dave (34:51.435)
Yeah.
Dave (34:59.471)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Simon McIntyre (35:00.674)
But that's me. I'm probably wouldn't, I'm not going to be invited to a leadership conference with my thoughts.
Dave (35:08.911)
Well, you never know. Maybe these are fresh thoughts that people need to hear. Maybe this is what leaders do need to hear of getting into the Scriptures and taking our leadership from there rather than from lots of books. And we love the books. I know I'm like you, I'm a reader. I love reading the books. But there is something about getting back to Scripture. And I think there is something about getting back to Scripture when it comes to preaching as well. You touched on that earlier.
Simon McIntyre (35:26.806)
Totally.
Dave (35:39.427)
And I think I'm very moved by that idea because I think lots of people do preach these days and the scriptures are, as you described, they're proof text. They're there to sort of give a little bit of credence to the thoughts they've brought, rather than this is the foundation, this is the springboard. And I just wonder, could churches be really stronger?
if they got back to that type of preaching, but also that type of leadership, or were in the presence, or were relying on the word, there's a sense of faith. It gets me thinking, what could the outcome be? You know, we would have dreamed of that even for a moment, what would the church look like five years, ten years, twenty years down the line from
what's often the common diet at the minute. Thoughts?
Simon McIntyre (36:39.198)
Look, I think we'd end up with initially smaller churches, but I think long term we'd end up with greater influence in the world and more believers, because you can only have so many how-to messages. I mean, as an example, we do, I've taught them, and no doubt yourself has, and lots of great churches, messages on, you know, financial stewardship, which are very important.
Dave (36:48.879)
Mm.
Dave (37:00.868)
Mmm. Yeah, yeah.
Dave (37:08.911)
share.
Simon McIntyre (37:09.71)
But I would wonder if we would be better to do Jesus talking about the danger of money rather than just how to deal with it better. Look, I've taught how to deal with money, for instance, like don't get into debt. That's just so unpopular. I don't have debt. Like I work against debt. Now I'm older and I've been fortunate financially for a number of reasons.
Dave (37:15.683)
Mmm.
Dave (37:26.004)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Simon McIntyre (37:37.982)
So I own houses, but I have no mortgages, but that's uncommon. So a mortgage to me is like a measured debt. You're either going to pay rent or pay a mortgage and you're better to have an asset for your family at the end of it. Yeah, absolutely. But teaching believers to be, to not have to spend, but you know what, that's all good. But I wonder if we taught what Jesus said about money, the danger of money, if it wouldn't actually
Dave (37:41.003)
Mmm.
Dave (37:48.213)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dave (37:52.267)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (38:07.826)
start to reorder how we thought about money in a way that's biblical, that's spiritual, and that reflects more of who Jesus is rather than just, I've got a good accountant, I'm out of debt, I have money in the bank. That's all okay, but it doesn't match up to kind of like the tougher statements about money. And I've heard over the years, Jesus talked more about money than anything. I'm thinking that's because it's more of a problem.
not because he was validating how good it was. And I'm not afraid of money. I'm not afraid of wealth and money. That's not my point. But so maybe that kind of issue could teach our people like a deeper spirituality about money and about possessions rather than just a good message of how to have some money left at the end of the week or whatever. So I think those sort of things, I think teaching through
Dave (38:40.367)
good point good point no I hear you yeah
Dave (39:01.263)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Simon McIntyre (39:07.022)
Paul's writings, if you read the book of Ephesians, it's going to face you up with unpleasant concepts in today's world. And so if I just take prayer or an element out of Ephesians, I'm not going to get the full sweep of Paul's panorama in that book, which is theology, application, family, men and women, marriage and...
Dave (39:17.024)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dave (39:28.11)
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (39:35.314)
all these awkward difficulties. So I think if we were teaching those, we would disciple our people better, but I'm not sure that we would have 10,000 an hour auditorium overnight. Slower.
Dave (39:42.35)
Yeah.
Dave (39:50.431)
Yeah, okay, but more influence, more influence you think over time.
Simon McIntyre (39:57.339)
over time and we've got to think beyond my generation.
Dave (40:00.255)
Yeah, yeah, great thought. I've got a couple more questions before we get into that. I guess some quick fire questions for a little bit of fun this afternoon as well. I know it's this afternoon here, morning where you are. So just thinking of this idea, I've heard you talk about this idea of the missing six days when it comes to church and leaders and the significance of that. I wonder if you could just speak into that a little bit.
We're just swapping the topic a little bit, but maybe just speak into that thought this afternoon.
Simon McIntyre (40:35.386)
When I read that question, Dave, I thought, did I say that? But then I'm responsible for saying a lot of things I've forgotten. I'm probably referring to Monday to Saturday. I think I'm referring to Monday to Saturday. Is that Sunday is awesome. And I go to church on Sundays. I'm not making a point not to do that. It's difficult for us because of where we live to do that, but we do it.
Dave (40:38.496)
Yeah.
hahahaha
Dave (40:45.833)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Dave (40:58.883)
Cheers.
Simon McIntyre (41:03.882)
We go to Atlanta to a C3 church quite regularly. So that's a flight, it's a car rental, it's a hotel. So, but it's worth it and love the church. But I think I'm referring to, you can have a great Sunday, you can have people feeling built up. And you know, I say this carefully, you can have people feeling whipped up, whoa! But what about Monday? Are those biblical lessons?
Dave (41:05.463)
Wow, wow.
Dave (41:11.119)
Wow. Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (41:33.222)
Are they permeating? Are they seeping in? Are they finding place in me from Monday to Saturday? Or is it just that I live Monday to Saturday awkwardly and then I go to church on Sunday and I feel better? To me that misses the entire point of the whole Christian experience. But I think it might be the experience of a lot of people because on Monday they don't feel great. They go to work and they've got to deal with a difficult boss or difficult employees.
Dave (41:39.34)
Yeah.
Dave (41:45.76)
Yeah, yeah.
Dave (41:51.086)
Yeah.
Dave (41:56.829)
Mmm.
Simon McIntyre (42:01.718)
They don't have money that they need to pay their children's education or they want. So what's it really like to live for Jesus Monday to Saturday and not just have a Sunday experience? Because those experiences, they leak out of us very fast.
Dave (42:13.496)
Yeah.
Dave (42:18.051)
They do. They do.
Simon McIntyre (42:20.074)
I think that's what I was referring to.
Dave (42:21.503)
Well, appreciate that. Yeah, thank you for sharing on that. And thinking of leaders today then, if leaders were to focus on one thing to give them the greatest return, what do you think that would be? I mean, we've mentioned a few things, so you may already have covered that. But just to give you an opportunity, if like thinking of the different age of leaders, different young leaders coming through, like.
you're standing in front of them, you're sitting in front of them, you want to give them one bit of advice of like investing in their leadership, what should that be?
Simon McIntyre (42:57.622)
I think number one, I would need to be living in God's presence and in God's Word personally. Number two, I would want the people in front of me to see that in me and to know how to do it. And number three, I want to make sure that through that there would be a proper long-term patient process of disciple.
Dave (43:03.573)
Mm-hmm.
Dave (43:18.543)
Okay.
Simon McIntyre (43:19.614)
And so that would be my quick answer.
Dave (43:23.135)
Yeah, your quick answer but it's a long process isn't it for that transformation to take place in people's lives. It's not overnight is it really? Yeah, fantastic. Well listen I have a few quickfire questions, it's been great just to hear a little bit more about the book. Is there anything else you want to share about the book you think would be relevant at this point before we jump into the quickfire questions?
Simon McIntyre (43:35.16)
Not at all.
Simon McIntyre (43:50.686)
No, aside from you get it on Amazon.
Dave (43:53.975)
Get it on Amazon. Great price.
Simon McIntyre (43:56.094)
And if you do and love it, yeah, and if you do love it, write a review. That's all. They help. I'm not going to become, I'm not going to be able to buy a private jet because of this book.
Dave (43:59.955)
Yeah, because that helps. I hear you. Maybe a private moped or something. We'll see. Well, there's a quick few quick questions for a bit of fun. The today as Simon one is this, what's your favorite podcast and why do you like it?
Simon McIntyre (44:11.886)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Simon McIntyre (44:24.67)
Oh, I'm going to, this is a terrible answer. I don't listen to podcasts a lot. I read books, but if I, yeah, so that's my quick answer.
Dave (44:30.091)
Right, okay.
Dave (44:34.undefined)
Alright, well we appreciate your honesty.
Simon McIntyre (44:36.352)
Oh, except for the icon podcast. That's the top of the list.
Dave (44:39.379)
Yeah, the Church Explained one. I heard that's a good one. It's worth listening to. That's a good guest on there. So what's currently challenging you the most? And maybe we've touched on some of that stuff. Is there anything else that's sort of challenging you?
Simon McIntyre (44:43.79)
It's a very good one. Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (44:49.456)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (45:02.598)
Personally, I'm going through transition so that's a, you know, I'm nearly 70 years old so that's a challenge and all of that but thank you, thank you, I'm modeling myself after you except for the beard. I think, that's right, I think the biggest challenge would be I get, discourage is the wrong word.
Dave (45:06.031)
Okay.
Dave (45:12.034)
Lick and good though.
Dave (45:18.877)
Yeah, I'm not that old. Be careful.
Simon McIntyre (45:34.74)
I worry about the westernification of the church. I worry that we're so far down the track of event experience. Huge money goes into these things. I worry that we're missing the difficult process of discipleship and the cost that will bring. That's my personal concern.
Dave (45:53.935)
OK.
Dave (45:58.975)
Yeah, a biggie. And I guess lots of people are sharing that same concern. Quite a lot written at the moment on discipleship and that sort of stuff. OK, a few others then. We'll not go through them all, but a few this afternoon is Can you recommend two books? You've just said you're a reader. Your two books you'd recommend and why?
Simon McIntyre (46:04.056)
Yes.
Simon McIntyre (46:19.998)
I tell you what, there's a book by a guy called Alan Crader, it's called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church. It's a cracker of a book. Basically it's about almost everything we do is different to what they did, and yet they changed the Roman Empire. They were exclusive. Our meetings are so open that we can't address tough issues without someone going to the law.
Dave (46:27.951)
Okay, is it really?
Dave (46:37.371)
Wow.
Simon McIntyre (46:50.21)
They were patient in their discipleship processes. You couldn't get baptized until you'd been catechized. I know there are issues with that, but the overall feeling of it's amazing. So that's one of my favorites, a brilliant book. And another book I'm loving is a book by, I'm just looking at it, by Richard B. Hayes called The Moral Vision of the New Testament. Absolutely stunning. It's, they're both academic, they're academic books.
Dave (47:13.591)
Yeah, yeah, take your books in.
Yeah? Yeah.
Simon McIntyre (47:19.202)
They're not John Grisham or they're not, you know, lightweight. They're academic books, but by golly, they are brilliant in what they say about our future and what we need to do.
Dave (47:20.878)
Yeah.
Dave (47:30.187)
Love that, love that. Thank you for those recommendations. We'll stick those in the show notes and people can find those as well. Your favorite hobby that you enjoy doing at the moment, besides walking on the beach early in the morning.
Simon McIntyre (47:45.438)
Yeah it is, watching the sunrise in Miami is rather special. My favourite hobby, do you know, it's probably, because our life's in a transition, it's probably reading. I am thinking, I've got a pilot's licence, I'm thinking of going and doing a boat licence here in Miami.
Dave (47:49.255)
Yeah.
Dave (47:55.079)
Okay, yeah.
Dave (48:01.443)
Right, maybe this... Maybe... Yeah, maybe this boat could pray for a private boat then. Maybe the boat's on its way, who knows? What... Yeah, ships coming in. Brilliant, listen, another couple of questions. And your favourite type of food... If you could only eat it.
Simon McIntyre (48:02.954)
And I think my wife would like me to do that. So that could be fun.
Simon McIntyre (48:14.744)
Oh, my boat's coming in, my ship's coming in. Ha!
Simon McIntyre (48:27.491)
Ooh, you know, I love Italian.
Dave (48:31.951)
to you. Okay. Anything in particular? Be specific.
Simon McIntyre (48:34.372)
But...
Simon McIntyre (48:39.158)
Yeah, not good for me. I don't eat much of it. A good pizza. A good pizza or a nice Cabanara. That's it. That's it.
Dave (48:42.091)
Yeah. Oh yeah, okay. Wood-fired pizza. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, yeah, I'm getting hungry now. It feels like lunchtime here. Okay, and if you could have, go ahead. Go for it, go for it.
Simon McIntyre (48:52.115)
Otherwise...
Simon McIntyre (48:57.567)
Otherwise, I know this sounds a bit generic, modern Australian food is exceptional. Seafood based, but absolutely exceptional.
Dave (49:02.157)
Oh, really?
Dave (49:07.359)
I like that, I like that, a bit of seafood, lovely. Last question for today is, if you could have one superpower, what would it be and why? It's just gonna reveal something about you today, Sam. This is the deep stuff you get on this podcast.
Simon McIntyre (49:22.85)
What would it be? You know the thing that came straight to mind? The power of invisibility.
Dave (49:26.079)
Yeah. Yeah, okay. Right. The mind boggles.
Simon McIntyre (49:30.778)
not having to be seen. That would be awesome. I'd like to be invisible. Yes, no, not so I could peek in people's windows.
Dave (49:44.563)
No, no, no one was saying that. We wouldn't go down that route on this podcast. But if we must, we'll have to address that. Well.
Simon McIntyre (49:49.516)
Hahaha!
Simon McIntyre (49:56.212)
So what does that say about me Dave? Unpack that. What does it say about me?
Dave (50:01.131)
I think it says that you like to be on your own, not to be seen, but you still like to be influential. What about that? We'll put that out there. Well Simon, listen, it's been great to have you on the show today. If people want to connect with you and find out a little bit more about you, where should they go? I know you're in a point of transition at the moment, things are changing, but where should people connect with you if they maybe just want to grab something from you?
Simon McIntyre (50:08.542)
Yep, there you go, perfect.
Simon McIntyre (50:15.81)
Thank you, Dave.
Simon McIntyre (50:30.968)
Well, Instagram is probably the easiest and my handle is Simon MCI. That's it. S-I-M-O-N-M-C-I. That's it. It's all one word. I do have a website, but that's more based around blogs. And that's simonmcintyre.net
Dave (50:32.103)
Instagram, yeah.
Dave (50:36.063)
Yeah, that's pretty easy. Same in MCI. Yeah, well looked.
Dave (50:46.319)
Okay.
Dave (50:50.703)
Brilliant, brilliant. And again, we'll stick that in the show notes. People can find that and find those links. But it's been a pleasure to have you here with us. Love the ideas. And the challenge I think you've been sharing there just around the business approach to leadership and the biblical approach. And like we want to be real here. We're not saying throw out everything, but there is some things I guess as leaders we should pay attention to and maybe get back to.
Simon McIntyre (51:11.796)
Nah.
Dave (51:18.107)
for the longevity of the church and for its own health, I think. So yeah, appreciate that. Thanks for sharing today. Well, that's a wrap for us at the Church Experience Podcast. If you want to subscribe, we'd love you to do that. You can find out more about us and all the different platforms. We've got lots of free resources on our website, icon.church forward slash open. Lots of free resources for you to download for your church, free of charge.
Simon McIntyre (51:18.487)
Yes.
Dave (51:44.675)
and you can use them whatever way you want. So thanks for connecting in with us. That's a wrap. We're gonna do the.
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