#S4 EP6: What do young leaders really think about sharing their faith? - A discussion with Shaila Visser
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Join us for part two as we talk with Shaila Visser for an engaging conversation about leadership, evangelism, and the challenges and opportunities within the church today. Discover Shaila's insights on the importance of understanding young leaders, the shifting dynamics of evangelism, and the crucial role of spiritual rhythms in leadership.
Learn about resources that can help leaders grow their church, and hear Shaila's advice on leading difficult personalities and maintaining an integrated, healthy spirituality as a leader.
This podcast also explores Alpha's ongoing impact and storytelling's power in promoting the church's mission.
We hope you enjoy
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Dave & Nathan (21:12.679)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I love that. No, yeah. Do you think that, again, just kind of correlating the two, is because of seeing the example of what we're terming more seasoned leaders in terms of their passion for that? I guess a lot of that passion would be in terms of, you know, numbers, church growth, those kind of things, being on the forefront, and then seeing them tired.
burnt out from all of that pressing in and a little bit about what you were talking about earlier in terms of it being the rhythm and it kind of being on, you know, the leader kind of taking the responsibility rather than, I forgot my rhythms right and this is part of my life, then God's about doing the work. Would you say that's kind of an accurate representation of what the younger leaders are seeing and that might be a correlation between that?
Shaila Visser (22:12.49)
I think so. And can I add one thing, Nathan, as well, that I think a lot of young people are seeing leaders that are either stretched too far, burning out, et cetera. So the rhythms, but also they're seeing church leaders take on responsibilities that are so heavy that they think, how could I carry those?
And they don't realize you grow into leadership, but they don't also realize that sometimes seasoned leaders take on responsibilities that was never theirs to carry, which goes back to my earlier, you know, are you there to build the kingdom? No, that's what the king does through the spirit. So I think they're seeing that. I think they're also disillusioned by some of the failures we've seen in more public figures or even in small communities, you might know of those kinds of situations. So I think young leaders have a lot of reasons to question evangelism
Dave & Nathan (22:48.902)
Yeah.
Shaila Visser (23:05.74)
into this or to question leadership and can I trust what's happening and so we just celebrate those faithful Saints that keep on serving the Lord quietly in their communities who love young people but there's a lot there's a lot going on in leadership right now it's funny because I am with some people that would think well if we just fuel the church and charities with more money
Dave & Nathan (23:18.591)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (23:23.324)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (23:31.447)
Hmm.
Shaila Visser (23:31.73)
we could go further. And I've actually said to them, it's not about the money, it's about the leadership. We need more leaders, more godly leaders, more sold out leaders. Money will help, but money needs to follow the vision and the moral character of great leaders.
Dave & Nathan (23:51.019)
Yeah, lots to think about there. And just staying on the theme of evangelism and thinking of the, I guess the model in Luke chapter 10 of evangelism, how do you think leaders can help their people move from a sort of fearful approach to evangelism to a more joyful approach? I mean, what can they do, do you think is the answer?
Shaila Visser (24:13.03)
Well, first of all, I just want to say to church leaders that are equipping their people, thank you, because, of course, Ephesians four says to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And we see in the church in Canada that there's not a lot of training around how do I share my faith? What do I even do? And I always go back to, and I think, Dave, we've talked about this before, Darrell Johnson's quote.
Dave & Nathan (24:17.863)
Yeah. Exactly.
Dave & Nathan (24:26.763)
Thank you.
Dave & Nathan (24:33.607)
Yeah.
Shaila Visser (24:33.634)
that evangelism is joining a conversation the Holy Spirit is already having with another person. And I think what's happened is we have talked so much about method that we've forgotten to talk about who is the great evangelist. And the great evangelist is the Holy Spirit. The great evangelist is in us, working in us. You are not the first person into the conversation and you are not the last person in the conversation. The first person is the Holy Spirit, the last person is the Holy Spirit. You get to be part of it.
Dave & Nathan (24:49.351)
Yeah, yeah.
Shaila Visser (25:04.208)
that's your role is to be in the middle of a conversation not to be the initiator. You start to look around with different eyes and you start to look at your neighbors and your friends and your family and you say to the Lord where are you working and how can I join you?
Dave & Nathan (25:18.388)
Yeah, great.
Shaila Visser (25:19.41)
And the opportunities that open up are extraordinary because you're looking with eyes of love and eyes of the spirit to say the spirits at work today. Where can I join them? So I start my day every morning praying lying in bed saying, Holy Spirit, you are welcome today to lead and guide me to join you and what you want to do around me. And could I please have the privilege of being in a conversation with someone who doesn't know you? And I can't tell you how it's not every day. But how many days?
Dave & Nathan (25:49.545)
Okay. Yeah.
Shaila Visser (25:49.705)
I end up in that conversation because he gives you the eyes of love and because he knows it's great for you as a disciple of Jesus to share Jesus with other people.
Dave & Nathan (25:59.571)
Yeah, I love that. And I've been thinking about that quite a bit, really, this idea that we're on a journey or we're taking people on a journey rather than... I think a lot of the old approach to evangelism, I think when I was trained in my early days in evangelism, it was always about getting them from A to B to the finish line. You just saw the ABC, always be closing sort of method, rather than thinking people are on a journey.
your idea was if I speak to somebody, my job is to make sure they make a decision by the end of this conversation. So I think there's something liberating for leaders to think through and to realise actually they're just part of the process rather than actually they're the person who has to get somebody over the line. I'll share a little story. A friend of mine who I was playing football with, we were having conversations around church and...
different things and you know lots of back and forth between me and him and you know I invited him to church and to some things that we were doing here but I also, he also had another friend who was having conversations as well. He ended up going to that friend's church of which could have been like well he didn't come to my church or he didn't come but I was part of that.
conversation and part of that process that he was going through in terms of him asking questions and I think Taking the pressure. Yeah off yourself of I've got to do and I just get to join God in what he's doing and as you said the Holy Spirit and what he's doing and the amazing story is he you know made a Decision to follow Jesus in that church and still goes to that church today Which is amazing and I find that really heartening
You know, I'd like him to be sat by me in my church, but he's following Jesus. Yeah. And I got to be a part of that, which is amazing. Yeah, that's just.
Shaila Visser (27:51.191)
That's right.
That's right. And I think with the I, sorry, Dave, can I just say that I think particularly with the younger people in my life. So I'm at a stage where I don't have children, but I have lots of God children and I have nieces and nephews and I have friends whose kids I talk to about spiritual issues. Some who have been raised in the church, some who have never been to church and everything in between. And you know what? The number one thing they want to know is Jesus. Good. Is Jesus good?
Dave & Nathan (27:57.778)
Go for it. Yeah.
Shaila Visser (28:22.39)
And so it isn't about, as you said, Dave, like getting them across a line, even though I'd love for them to put their full faith and trust and hope in Jesus. It really is about, can we take a conversation that God gives us with a young person and just in some way make Jesus just a little bit better than they thought before they entered the conversation? And I'm finding that approach is really helping
Dave & Nathan (28:44.121)
Yeah.
Shaila Visser (28:50.326)
my evangelism efforts with younger people, but also just to be honest and to hear them and listen to them and give them an opportunity to see that Jesus is better than they thought. The things he's doing with them are absolutely amazing. When I take the pressure off myself and them and instead I'm like, how can I reflect that Jesus is better than you ever thought he was?
Dave & Nathan (28:56.892)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (29:01.535)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (29:05.13)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (29:08.646)
Mmm.
Dave & Nathan (29:12.863)
Yeah, brilliant. I love that and I think even some teaching like that, you know, just think just think of that group of youth pastors or youth leaders at the minute who are struggling to you know evangelize people. I mean that's a much healthier approach really isn't it? A conversation with them to say hey listen as you have a conversation you're helping people on a journey. It's not like a done deal ABC. It's about actually you know just partnering with God and what he's doing.
I think there's something healthier about that, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, so good. Just thinking back to Alpha and the things that you're doing, what does Alpha look like going forward? I guess last time we spoke, a lot of Alpha was online during the pandemic and there was lots of online Alpha. Does that look the same? Does it look like more in-person approach? And what does the research tell us in terms of churches? Is it...
still online or is it actually let's get back to in person?
Shaila Visser (30:17.398)
You know what it's mainly in person now there are still online I just you wouldn't believe this in twenty one I did off online with a bunch of business women some I went to university with some friends of friends we just met for the first time last weekend so like. Basically two years later we got together in person we've been meeting once a month since alpha and we just had our.
first spiritual retreat weekend and God was just so present with us. It was amazing. But actually most people are wanting to meet in person now. They're wanting to gather around a table. They're wanting to be in someone's home, at least in Canada. So that's what we're seeing. And you know what's interesting is the churches that are willing to sort of raise their heads and look outward are finding that their alphas are quite full. They're seeing more people come on alpha than
because so many people have questions. They're really wondering what on earth is going on with this world, whether it's geopolitics, whether it's interest rates, whether it's the economy, wars, et cetera. There's a lot of questions that people feel in their souls quite unsettled. And so even people that have never been to church before are asking questions like.
Should I go to church? Like, is there hope there, do you think? And we've just had someone in our life who's never been to church in his life for a wedding or funeral or anything on his own, on his own, of course we know what the Holy Spirit's at work, say, maybe I should go to church. I mean, his wife just about fell over. Like, what do you mean church? This is not part of our lives. But it was because he's just so unsettled about all that's going on in the world.
Dave & Nathan (31:42.283)
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
Dave & Nathan (31:47.553)
Bye.
Dave & Nathan (31:56.46)
Yeah
Shaila Visser (31:57.17)
So there's great opportunity. We're seeing people gathered in person. But I think with young people in particular, meeting a person is absolutely the way to do it. But they are also learning how to have conversation again in person and not on a device. And that's really important for us to recognize that that's a shift with the next generations coming up is in-person conversation face-to-face is not as easy or as natural as it was for us.
Dave & Nathan (32:13.112)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (32:27.788)
Wow. Brilliant. So just thinking for you then, I mean we know you're really passionate about evangelism, you're passionate about investing in leaders. Got me thinking, if you could only give one message to church leaders today, you only had, you know, just one thing you can say to them, what would that be?
Shaila Visser (32:49.534)
I think the best advice I could ever say is abide in him. It's so simple perhaps to say John 15, right? Remain in me, abide in me. But actually, the more we know pastors and the more we know what's happening in the charitable sector in Canada, most leaders find that the hardest thing to do.
Dave & Nathan (33:03.12)
Yeah, yeah.
Shaila Visser (33:15.51)
The hardest thing to do is have an integrated, healthy spirituality as a leader. You know, you think of me this morning. How do I find time with Jesus before I start my day? If I'm on a 6 a.m. podcast, I had to get up even earlier. I had to see that as more important than being dressed properly looking nicely, you know, being ready. I had to see my spiritual life is more important than getting it right on a podcast.
And I think that's really hard for leaders like me who are get up and go and I'm driven to succeed. I'm an achiever. I'm very passionate and future oriented and visionary.
Dave & Nathan (33:52.543)
Yeah.
Shaila Visser (33:53.978)
To recognize that all falls under the submission of the Lord Jesus Christ and so abiding and so when you actually get pastors alone and you talk to them about their own spiritual lives you recognize that abiding is the most difficult part of what they do and yet they're the spiritual leader of a community. And so I just want to encourage pastors that.
and any leader that our own spiritual rhythms, our own connectedness to the vine is the most significant leadership attribute that we bring to all of those that we lead.
Dave & Nathan (34:22.079)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (34:27.143)
Yeah. Lovely. Yeah, so good. And just a great reminder again to come back and, as you said, abide in him and recognise that. What other helpful resources are Alpha producing that can help leaders to grow, grow the church? And I wonder if I was just thinking about Alpha, actually, in your experience, where have you seen Alpha done really well? And
you know, like how have they done that? What, you know, there might just be one thing that just, you know, oh, actually they did that really well, that would help a church that's thinking we're running Alpha or they're set up to run Alpha. Yeah. So it's two questions. Well, yeah. Two questions you've got there. That was me thinking. Yeah, he's thinking. So the first one was, what new resources?
Shaila Visser (35:12.074)
I think two, yeah, two, yeah, okay.
Dave & Nathan (35:19.627)
And the second one was Alpha done well. Yeah, Alpha done well. Is there something that, you know, church can take away to go, do you know what, actually doing that helps us to do Alpha well. That's great.
Shaila Visser (35:30.27)
Yeah, so I'll say firstly that some of the new resources, we have done Life Shared, which is three episodes. We're about to release our fourth episode in October, which is a small group resource to help your small groups at your church be really have eyes to see what's happening. Like, so how do I become more invitational? How do I see this opportunity? So we say that those episodes called Life Shared,
before you run alpha can really help a congregation to look beyond themselves and say, okay, what relationships do I have? The second thing we have is the same thing called life on purpose for youth. And that's for youth groups to use with their youth to say, hey, how do we look beyond ourselves? How do we actually reach into our schools or our sports teams, et cetera, to start to invite them to things like alpha or church or youth group. And so those are two resources that we produce that could be helpful for churches. And then I'll say,
best practices and what I'm seeing people doing. And it's two things and it's about the church leader. One is the church leader himself or herself modeling a life of invitation to people that are outside the church. Can the church leader model it themselves in the midst of their busy life? And then the second thing is they tell stories about it.
Dave & Nathan (36:49.771)
Wow.
Shaila Visser (36:50.502)
So it's do you model it and do you tell stories and stories can be from anywhere in the congregation that you're amplifying but are you doing it yourself telling your own stories and telling stories of others and the best stories aren't just the ones where I shared my faith at work someone came to alpha they became a Christian that feels so linear and simple and the reality is that's not what most
evangelistic stories look like they look like I invited someone to alpha 14 times. My my colleague at work said like I was an idiot to believe any of this and I prayed for them and then someone else invited them to alpha and they went I'm so disappointed they didn't come with me. So I think we just need to keep telling those stories but the pastors that model it and tell stories their congregation gets excited about the things the pastors excited about.
Dave & Nathan (37:28.621)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (37:38.091)
Brilliant. Really good. Well, we're almost done. We've got a few quickfire questions. Quickfire. So are you okay with those? Some quickfire questions. So yeah, it's been great just to find out about Alpha. Again, a little bit more about, shout out about your passions for leaders, investing in leaders, and of course, evangelism and reaching people with the message of Jesus. That's been brilliant for us today. But a few quickfire questions, which is number one is, what is your favorite podcast? And
Shaila Visser (37:44.846)
Okay.
Dave & Nathan (38:07.487)
Why do you like it?
Shaila Visser (38:10.03)
Okay, two, not one, Rebuilders, Mark Sayers, Never Miss. It's absolutely fantastic. Second, new one, John Tyson, Awaken Network. It is inflaming my heart for the things of God.
Dave & Nathan (38:25.379)
and yeah I'll listen to the second.
Dave & Nathan (38:31.759)
second to Church Explained podcast. Second of course, thanks Nathan. Can you... Sorry, that can be number three. Yeah, can you... Oh no, I'm skipping one. What is currently challenging you the most?
Shaila Visser (38:35.878)
Oh, sorry, I should have said that first.
Shaila Visser (38:49.86)
leading people that are difficult.
Dave & Nathan (38:52.235)
Okay, I like that. There we go, quick fire. We'll leave it there.
Shaila Visser (38:57.918)
No, you know what? The reality is ministry would be easy if we didn't have people. And I have the most amazing people, but there are difficult personalities and they're difficult because they're different than me. But I love to lead them and figure out how can I best equip them and lead them and help them.
Dave & Nathan (39:02.887)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dave & Nathan (39:11.284)
Yeah.
Dave & Nathan (39:18.247)
Yeah, but an honest answer, which is what we need, is it really? Yeah, brilliant. So your top two books you would recommend?
Shaila Visser (39:26.606)
I loved a book called, oh no, okay, this is where you're gonna have to edit for a second. Why have I forgotten? I had these two off the top of my head. Give me a second. Okay, got it. Okay, I'm ready. Can you ask the question again, Dave, and I'll do it.
Dave & Nathan (39:39.291)
All right, Sam's a great editor.
Dave & Nathan (39:44.091)
Yeah. Can you recommend two books that you've enjoyed and explain why you like them?
Shaila Visser (39:50.726)
Yeah, the big potential and it's about teams and how to how to see potential in other people. The big potential is about that so absolutely recommend and then Unreasonable Hospitality will get era if you've not read that book. It's a must read for everyone.
Dave & Nathan (40:08.963)
Yeah, I like that. I've heard of that but I haven't read it. No, I haven't. No, that intrigues me. That intrigues me. Who is the person that inspires you the most in your life?
Shaila Visser (40:19.822)
Daryl Johnson, he's a pastor, teacher, professor at Regent College. He's 75 or 76 years old and he loves Jesus more every year and being around him makes me love Jesus more.
Dave & Nathan (40:33.171)
Oh, awesome. Brilliant, and the next one is, if you could travel anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Shaila Visser (40:40.854)
I want to go to Croatia. I want to go on a holiday there. I want to go bike Croatia. I love seeing different parts of the world. And so I'd really like to go there. But the second to it is I'd really like my husband to go to India to see the country that my family comes from, but also because I'm very interested in missions work in India. And I'd love to see some projects on the ground.
Dave & Nathan (41:02.081)
Mmm.
Dave & Nathan (41:05.294)
What's your favourite food and why do you like it?
Shaila Visser (41:10.03)
I don't know why, but my favorite food is burgers. If you said, what's your last meal? I want a burger. I love burgers.
Dave & Nathan (41:18.789)
Any particular type of burger? Is it like a cheeseburger? Bacon cheeseburger? Come on, we need details.
Shaila Visser (41:22.674)
Oh, I love cheese. I love cheese. I love cheese. I love onions. I yeah, I like layer it up. I love it.
Dave & Nathan (41:28.027)
Oh, yes. Yeah, burger stack then. I'm going to, I'm going to go right to the last question. Cause I want to ask this one. You can ask the next one. If you want to go, if you can have any superpower, uh, what would it be and why?
Shaila Visser (41:46.418)
I would really like to teleport. I travel a great deal and if I could teleport in some way. Now that might be the ability to fly super fast and get from, you know, Canada to Malaysia really quickly. But boy, being on an airplane for lots of hours is not my favorite thing. So I would love to be able to get places faster.
Dave & Nathan (41:48.991)
Cut.
Dave & Nathan (42:08.211)
Teleport, that's a good one because some of the people we've had on the show, some have said, I want to be invisible, but then we realised they're the introverts, so we realised that's what that is. Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well, it's been great to have you on the Church Explained podcast, Shayla. What's the best way for people to connect with you?
Shaila Visser (42:19.186)
Yeah, you could tell I'm an extravert because I'm like, I just want to go more places and get there faster and meet new people. That's what I want to do with my life.
Shaila Visser (42:35.51)
Yeah, on LinkedIn or on Instagram. Those are the two easiest places to find me and I'm just Shayla Visser on Instagram.
Dave & Nathan (42:44.439)
Well it's been great to have you here. You're going to do the wrap up in a second but yeah we want to say a big thank you to you Shelly for all the work you're doing. Shout out to Dan Blythe as well, of course we need to do that because I think you're his friend so I've been told. But also just we're so excited about the stuff that Alf is doing, always excited because it reaches so many people and those numbers are just mind blowing aren't they. So a big shout out to all the Alf guys, all the guys you work with.
We're really cheering you guys on. Yeah, we're believing and praying with you guys for that.
Shaila Visser (43:15.91)
Well, can I just say thank you for what you're doing as well to serve church leaders around the UK and beyond, but also just the fact that you champion like, how do we help more people meet Jesus? That to me is the most one of the most important things we could ever do.
Dave & Nathan (43:34.559)
Well, that's a wrap for the Church Explained podcast. Thank you for listening. If you can subscribe and share wherever you're consuming this content, share it with people who it would really benefit. Then doing that helps us get the word out about the podcast. And yeah, you can access free resources at icon.church.org slash open that are available there. Also we'll put in the show notes, any of the links that Shayla has mentioned on there.
that you can get access to really quickly. But that's it for the Church Explained podcast. I'm a little bit rusty because I've not been here a few times, but it's been a pleasure to meet you and be with you. And we'll see you next time on the Church Explained podcast. Well, we'll pause up there, shall we? That's a wrap. Charlotte, thank you very much for taking the time to get up so early.
