CEP 13: PAUL BENGER ON EVERY LEADER HAS THEIR LEAVERS
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger & guest Scott Wilson
Welcome to Episode: 13 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
In this episode, we chat with Lead Pastor Paul Benger about why we must accept that every leader has their leavers. Then we explore how we want to respond to this as leaders and how we should respond when people leave us.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hey welcome everyone to the Church explained podcast a conversation to develop your leadership and grow your Church. In this episode, we're going to be talking with lead Pastor Paul banjo on the subject of this, that every leader has their leavers.
David Mckeown 0:24
Hi, I'm Dave Mckeown.
Nathan Benger 0:25
And I'm Nathan benja. And we are your hosts on the Church explained podcast and today we are joined on the podcast again, by Lee, Pastor of IKON Church, Paul benja. Again, again, in a different place, though. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll see we've got a different set today.
David Mckeown 0:43
Different place different time. Yeah, that's it. We are here. It's good to be with you, Paul.
Paul Benger 0:47
Good to be here.
David Mckeown 0:48
And, hey, since your last with is when we talked about Church mergers, we've had quite a lot of people connecting into that. And living through that. What have you been up to?
Paul Benger 0:59
Well, obviously lead in lead in Church and lead in the in this season where people are now coming back to him person. gatherings, we last weekend, we're able to do seven in person gatherings, across IKON Church, which was great. So that's good. I've also been heavily involved in ground level Leadership Conference, which was a sort of a 24 hour just over 24 hour thing I thought that was went well. And I was involved in planning that but also in speaking and leading that as well. And I've also done a few painting commissions since we were last together. So I've got I've got one more to do as well. So I enjoy those.
David Mckeown 1:40
So the question is, are you offering a discount to people watching? I know, there are people out your answer. This guy,
Paul Benger 1:50
I will offer to do a commission. Discount available.
Nathan Benger 1:56
Brilliant. Well, today we're going to talk about our subject really is every leader has their leavers. And you talk to our staff earlier this year on this subject. But also, I think, and we want to do this in the podcast, because it's a subject that everyone will face as a leader. Everyone will do that. And so we've got we've actually got a PDF with all the key points that you'll be able to get at IKON dot Church forward slash open, you'll be able to get that, but you share three key things that we would like to kind of just talk around today in the show. I wonder, Dave, whether you just highlight those three things for us?
David Mckeown 2:39
Certainly. So the first one was, what we should know, when people leave us. That's important, because as Nathan said, people will leave. Secondly, hi, we often respond in the situation. And I suppose 30 is how we should respond. So there's those three elements, you know, we want to try and dive into that a little bit.
Paul Benger 3:01
Yeah, very good. Well, shall we? Yeah, kick off with what we should I guess what we should know. Yeah.
David Mckeown 3:06
Let's go with that. What we should know the fact that when people leave,
Paul Benger 3:10
yeah. Well, I think the title gives it away. Really. Every leader has their leavers. And I guess some of the points that I brought out in the staff meeting was that Jesus had his leavers. You know, not just Judas. But when you think of Jesus, Jesus's ministry, there was one point where he said something, and a whole bunch of people left, even turned to the disciples and said, Are you gonna leave as well? And Peter said, now we've got nowhere to go. You've got the words in return alive. Paul talks quite a bit actually about the fact that he had his leavers talks about a guy called Demas who left him because he loved the world. Too much. He talks about the fact that when he was on trial in Asia, he said all of Asia has left me so you know, we're not the first
Nathan Benger 3:58
to have Lehman. He mentions two names as well. He does. But I'm only highlighting it because I want you to pronounce them for me. Well,
Paul Benger 4:06
I think I think it's forget Yes. And here Mancini's,
Nathan Benger 4:10
I ain't got a clue if that's correct, but
Paul Benger 4:12
well done. I don't think it's I don't think
David Mckeown 4:15
it's probably pretty good. The first one? Well, we'll forget about that one.
Paul Benger 4:23
The other thing is that people leave for different reasons. Yeah. I think it's important to know that so not everybody leaves for the same reason. And, and that's important, because sometimes you can, you can try and make every situation the same. So if you felt some culpability in somebody leaving, you know, you don't need to feel that every time because people leave for different reasons. Some people leave because they've become offended. You know, it's just a fence in their life. Many people I found leave because it's a discipleship issue in them, that actually, they've come to to a point where God is asking them to step over a line to, to make a choice, you know, it's not just the coming to faith where a Christian follower of Jesus has to make that step. But actually we're constantly in this cycle of growing and developing. And so there'll be points in our lives, I think of confrontation, and therefore, often people leave, because they're avoiding a discipleship
David Mckeown 5:26
issue. And I suppose that's the same with Jesus, I pointed you, you made there the people were even weren't there because he was challenging them with a new idea, a new concept, also analyse it that point they they thought to themselves, well, we can't we can't handle this kind of accept it can't accept those who are Yeah, we've got to go. So let's try to draw that out a little bit if we can, Paul, you know, what, what have you seen in that? What sort of reasons discipleship reasons? Do
Paul Benger 5:53
you think people leave? I think people have left at Church because they've been challenged to forgive others. And I don't mean, necessarily, they've been challenged by somebody, like somebody who's gone and said name for noon, you know, I know that you've got a problem with this person, you need to forgive them. But actually, in the context of Church, you know, Sunday, Sunday worship together, teaching is a discipleship moment. Yeah. And, and God, you know, God is always will always be on our case, and for what's best for us. And so, I've seen people through forgiveness and forgiveness, I think I've seen people through challenge with certain levels of commitment, you know, whether I believe the Holy Spirit has been challenging people, to serve more, maybe to give more to, you know, commit more to the kingdom of God, you know, Jesus's demands, if we can put them that it or not a not light upon us? No, no. And so often people, when they're confronted with those in their life, you know, there's always grace for us, and Jesus is patient with us. But often people find sometimes like that group of people, we can't cope with this. This is too much for us. Yeah,
Nathan Benger 7:07
I guess as well, on the flip side of that, you also then have people who leave? Because there's a call of God? Yeah.
Paul Benger 7:15
I wonder if you just speak into that. Because that again, is someone leaving and can be Yeah, can be hurtful. It can and, or, and sometimes not easy to as just as difficult to deal when, you know, and so we've we've had people with a sense of God's call on on their life. And I guess my first response would be, how can we help you out work that in our context, but then sometimes that's not been possible. So people have left to pursue the call of God on their life, you know, and do do other things. Other people leave. And that's more of a positive thing is one more is one you become more comfortable with, you know, once you've given rationale and, and time to that. Also people leave because she sent you send them, you know, you send them off. And yeah, that's, that's what got in it is actually better to be sent than just to go and leave. But you you send them and you bless them. Can you do that?
David Mckeown 8:15
I was just thinking on that. I suppose we were talking about it in this context, but the principles of the cm, every word, every Church, that I think it's good to make people aware of that a little more, you're talking from your experience experience. Yeah, in our Church setting here. But of course, it happens everywhere, doesn't it? Yeah, every Church setting you have to have every which is the title, isn't it? Yeah. So yeah, yeah. So it's good just to be aware of that.
Paul Benger 8:42
And another thing to mention might be the idea that people leave, because of shame. Because maybe there's something that has been exposed in their life. And again, we're not the kind of Church that exposes people now. But you know, they make they made a mistake, they, you know, a relationship as failed, or they've, they've done something they become critical of leadership or, and they've been open about it. And then they feel this sense of shame. Even sometimes they, if they, you know, have asked people for forgiveness. And that sense of shame means that they, they, they somehow can't get past that, even though nobody's holding it over them. And they can't get past that. And so often, they find themselves, well, I need a fresh start, I guess is what they're saying to themselves. We'll go somewhere else. And maybe we've got a clean slate. So there's all kinds of different reads. And
Nathan Benger 9:34
this is nothing new, because obviously, you've been in Church leadership, say 35 plus years. And all of that. So I guess sometimes we can focus on the person leaving and their response, but we want to focus as leaders on our response. How do we often respond and and why do we respond in that way? Yeah, well, when
Paul Benger 9:56
we talked about this in our staff meeting, I felt it was really important. Be real. And I'm not just to talk about this as how we should respond, but to talk about how we do respond. And particularly when people have left, let's say for some of the negative reasons, whether it be shame or discipleship issue, I think we respond often and I found myself responding with hurt, you feel her and you take it personally, you, you've, you know, you feel it, within your own heart within your own soul. And that leads obviously to, you know, can lead to disappointment and discouragement within you. And so we feel we feel those things, I think cutely and somebody, you know, once one said, Don't take it personal. And I remember leaders shouting out saying, but it is personal, you know, because they were in the midst of it. And they felt that, and I think one of the reasons for that is that good leaders treat the Church like family. Yeah. And even you know, they don't, even though Church has to be structured, it has to be organised. It has to be an organisation and the larger Church get, the more more it needs to have accountability and all those things, but at it at their heart, good leaders treat the Church like family that's Jesus did that. So remember, Jesus, people said, Your mother, and your brothers and sisters are here, and he points to His disciples. And it wouldn't just be the 12 it'd be a larger group of disciples and He says, Here is my mother, my brothers, my sister, whoever does the will of God is my mother, my brother and my sister. He talked about this new family, within the kingdom of God. And that's how good leaders I believe, think about Church. This is this is a family and so you don't leave a family unit. So that's why it feels hurt. But then people often think about Church is a commodity. It's it's a little bit do I shop? I'm gonna have to mention Sainsbury's because genius the way my wife used to work in Sainsbury's. Do I shop at Sainsbury's? Or do I shop at some somewhere else Marks and Spencers Aldi or wherever? Yeah, that's a commodity choice. Yeah. And people sometimes view Church that way. And that hurts leaders because they see it as fun. Yeah,
David Mckeown 12:16
so so just thinking of that idea of a leader maybe watching that podcast or listening? Maybe they've experienced that people leaving them? I often think you know, it's to do with this idea of the fact that they've invested in people yes, for a while, you know, when you invest in people like as you say, like it best in people's lives at that point, then you can feel a little bit a raft, when someone comes and goes, can't you really you
Paul Benger 12:42
can, and you can feel because of that you can feel betrayed, that somebody has betrayed your trust, your investment, your your time, and your commitment, you can feel fit your hurt, is because of a feeling of betrayal. In that moment, I also think we respond sometimes with fear. And sometimes fear of our reputation. Sometimes fear about our influence is at will our influence diminish. But also we can be afraid of the influence of the person leaving. Yeah, you know, what will? Who will this affect? What will be the knock on what will be the damage? Will they do and we've had people over the years who've tried to destroy us? Who would say that, you know, now that's at the extreme. But then there's always a ripple effect when people leave, and leaders can be afraid of that turned?
David Mckeown 13:40
And do you think just think of this idea of replication? Obviously, you've got the reputation of the Church, and then you've got the reputation of the leader? It impacts both, don't you? Don't you think?
Paul Benger 13:51
Really it does? Yeah. And also, I think the reputation of what's happening in a season of the Church, you know, I think, in some seasons of our Church where people have left, but where there's been several people leaving a similar time, let's say, God's been doing great things at the same time. Yeah. But that can get lost your testimony of what God is doing. Can Get lost. Jonah's
David Mckeown 14:19
shadow doesn't
Paul Benger 14:20
overshadow that's great phrase. overshadowed because of everybody's talking about, well, this person's left or that person's Yeah, left, etc. And that leads to discouragement. Yeah, and disappointment and we feel we feel those things you shared. I think it was an American statistic, even around the COVID season
Nathan Benger 14:43
that so many pastors I can't remember what it was exactly now to seven out of 10 pastors were looking for a new job, because of this feeling of discouragement, disappointment, and, you know, even just linking it to this is that many pastors have felt they're using the term ghosted. Yeah. Because they've not been able to see the Church. They don't know if they've been connecting online. Are they coming back? Are they coming back? They may have had some people who leave, and they might be feeling and you might be listening watching this, you might be feeling in that way. But you shared some great things on Okay, so we might often respond like this, we're probably gonna feel this. Yeah, we're gonna be in this place. But here's how we should respond. Yeah, I wonder if you just touch on some of those things. Yeah.
Paul Benger 15:31
And I'm not sharing that, in the sense of this is how we do respond what we shouldn't. Yeah, now we do respond like this. But here's how we respond in that moment. When we, when we feel these things when it happened. I mean, I guess the first thing for me is you always fall back on the promises, fall back on the promises of God and or trust the Word of God. You know, Jesus said, I will build my Church and for all all the time that I've been leading IKON Church, that promise like, there's not a week goes by without I'm not calling on God, reminding him of his promise. He doesn't need reminding. But I need to remind me I need to say I'm trusting that build your Church. That's where I'm putting my trust today.
David Mckeown 16:18
That's as it sounds simple that doesn't have any idea of Yeah, you know, we we say about his, his his Church. But I say that is a liberating thing when your leaders sit back,
Nathan Benger 16:29
and you use that word overshadow. Yeah, this situation can overshadow but just falling back on the promise. Again, the shadow is the, you know, darkness, it brings back into lie. Yeah, here's the problem. It
David Mckeown 16:40
lifts the clients. We want to use that language.
Paul Benger 16:43
Yeah. And I've had moments where I've thought as let's think of how bad this could get. Jesus will still build his Church. Yeah. I don't want it to get bad. I don't want to feel more discouraged. I don't want to, I want to don't i don't want to delve deeper into the abyss here. But Jesus will still build these Church. And I trust that and I trust his word.
David Mckeown 17:04
And I think just drawn out a little bit, Paul as the fact that what we've experienced hasn't like in this season of COVID. And we don't want the talk about that today. But in reality, like the Church is still growing. Yeah, this Church has no moving personal becoming Christians. Yeah. So all that still happened in one of the worst, I suppose. times we've been working in a world globalising. And that's one of the worst times and the Church is still moving forward and still being built, then that's a good way to have a better perspective. Really.
Paul Benger 17:37
Yeah. And I think of that promise in the context of Church. But I also think about the verse where it says that the one who calls you is faithful. Yeah. Because I think there'll be leaders listening to this. Maybe they're not leaders in a Church context, but the leader business, and they go through the same same thing. Maybe they've invested. I know, you know, when when I was in the business world, we talked a lot about investing in enable people through training, but then being afraid that they'd leave and join a come, competitor that happens. But actually, I think if you're a Christian leader, you can say the one who's called you to this position is faithful. Yeah. And and so I think that's, that's even in that moment, where you feel discouraged, betrayed, however, you feel you actually can lean in on the promise of God, you can fall back on.
David Mckeown 18:27
Yeah. So what else did you share on on that day with your staff? Because you talked about the promise years. Another couple of things that I thought were very important, very helpful for the staff and team really,
Paul Benger 18:38
I mean, big thing that's been very helpful to me is to measure your ministry, or to measure your work, if we're thinking outside of Church, measure your ministry, in the people who are with you. Yeah, just like Jesus, you know, he had his he had his core, he had his he had his 12. He had a 7080 or so is 500. And then the crowds, the 1000s. I think Jesus was measuring his ministry and those who were closest to him, those who were with him, those who have given up to follow him. And I think we should do that too. That actually there will be people who are just just on the fringe of things, but to measure what what you're sharing what your what your your anointing is, in those who are closest with you is not a phrase that I invented, measure your ministry. In those who are with you. I think I heard it about 3025 30 years ago from a man called Gerald COEs. And I never left me. And it's always been helpful. So you know, again, at times, I've had to shift my focus where my focus has been on what's been maybe negative or overshadowing, I've been able to think about this person or this family that I can just see thrive in and just say, that's what God I can see what God is doing. Put my focus back on what God's doing. Do you think I'm just thinking about this? Because I'm one Whether we need to reframe what success looks like in our own eyes, rather than, you know, because every leader has their leavers. And so, you know, Church life can be up and down here, there and everywhere. I wonder if actually, for ourselves, we have to reframe success in the fact of measuring it by those who are with you. Yeah. What's their journey looking like, Where?
Nathan Benger 20:24
Where are they going? What's their discipleship journey look like? What's their leadership journey looking like? Where are they are, rather than, you know, focusing on, you know, all that fringe stuff. Yeah. That that kind of stuff. I wonder if that would be important. Yeah. Well,
Paul Benger 20:40
another phrase again, someone said it, I think I heard it first from I believe it was Francois van Niekerk. From It was a Pastor in South Africa at the time. And he said success is having successes is the same idea. And rarely, the and when you think of Jesus, you know, he called 12. He called those he wanted that, that that 12 was probably most of the time, around 70 people who were hanging around Jesus and His ministry, particularly when he was in a region of compare neom. But Jesus could attract crowds of 15,000. But
David Mckeown 21:18
he was out social media. Yeah, he made
Paul Benger 21:21
it to them. Yeah. But he was inputting into the truck. And when it comes to post resurrection, that crowd is 120. It's not 500, it's not 15,000 is 120. When it comes to the day of Pentecost, 10 days later, it's just around 120 120 people. And so, you know, we, our churches may have hundreds of people, and they may not be whatever size, but there'll be people who are receiving and responding to what God is doing. That's where you measure success is having success. And
David Mckeown 21:54
I want to just pick up on what Nathan was saying there by this idea of measuring your success, because that's, that's a big thing for you isn't really yeah, space you have there's a bit of shift and a bit of change in Church when people come and people go. And I suppose you've got to be realistic in the sense like even with Jesus, not only did the crowd leave him when he gave my challenge, but we'll get to the cross, because most of the disciples were running as well. Weren't they run in the opposite direction? Yeah. Especially preacher, especially Peter. So I think it's even going beyond that. That confidence has got to be and who we are in God. Yeah. Not just on high higher those around me doing? Yeah, gentlemen, I think that's the next step. But the first bit of who who am I and what's God doing in my life, then the second part doesn't really make sense. I don't
Nathan Benger 22:47
know. No, no. Good. You mentioned obviously, things for us to do in terms of like responding, you know, to some of that discouragement, falling back on the promise how we measure, but what about with those people? Because you had talked about obviously, there's a discipleship issue, but also for the leader. It's a discipleship issue as well. So how do you let people go?
Paul Benger 23:11
Yeah, well, I think I think, also, you've got to let people go with grace. You know, wherever you can. And sometimes that said, like, you say, it's a discipleship issue for you as a leader, you've got to fight. Sometimes you want to argue, sometimes you want to tell everybody, sometimes you want to make an announcement in the Church? Do you know this person? Do you know, has done these five things against me? Yeah, that's the challenge, isn't it for leaders, right, you know what, that you can't let people know that's that, you know, you can't tell and and we've, we've always tried Genie and myself and the other leaders era IKON Church, we've always tried to protect people, even people who would do in this hall, we've sought to protect them. We've never gone public. And we could have gone public. And, you know, I, I could bring a stack of emails and read them out.
David Mckeown 24:07
That's my life stack now, seriously, and I could not just last week, isn't it?
Paul Benger 24:12
A sympathy of the but we have always said we won't do that. We'll let people go with grace will be will be grace as we'll forgive. Because that's the discipleship issue for the leader to failure. But you know, just like when you've forgiven abuser, yeah. You don't submit yourself to the abuse. And the same is true in Church when somebody wants to do the Church arm. The leaders have to protect the Church from that. But they also have to forgive forgive the person so he let your let people go with grace. And you also because you're relying on the promise you look for the new group, and you look for the next and you look for the upgrade. And I've always prayed that and believed believe that not that people are a commodity. They're not but that is In God's heart, he wants to keep going forward. Yeah. And so if if you've lost something that matters if you've lost something that, you know was useful, was helpful, and working with you. I think God has got a plan to not just replace that, but actually to take it to another level. And Jesus said that I think to His disciples when he said, you know, the disciples said, we've left all this. And Jesus said, Hey, let me tell you in this life, you'll receive 100 times more than what you think you've lost. It's great. So this is my kind of last area, you look for the new year, look for the next year, look for the upgrade.
David Mckeown 25:40
Really good as well. Trying to think through then one of the next questions here is, do we think that this applies to a team member? So it could be that maybe not a Church leaders watching but it could be someone's in the team, they're leaving the team, but someone's left their payment here? You know, they can go through the same sort of feelings and responses, can't they? So what do we want to say into that today?
Paul Benger 26:03
Well, I think exactly the same, exactly the same thing. And I think one thing I'd add for Church leaders and for team leaders, so all the things that have gone before exactly the same for at&t, do you feel those things, but fall back on the promise fall back on the people who are with you. And if you're a team leader, you've probably got somebody who's put you in that position, who believes in you fall back on that as well. But also every lead every good leader does examine themselves in those moments, and you can question yourself, to critically, but every leader does examine themselves and because they want to grow in their discipleship. And I would say take those opportunities to do that self awareness is so important, knowing the knowing the limits of your leadership, and knowing where your leadership as is at this moment in time, in the Old Testament, there's the story of, of Jethro, and Moses, and how does Moses lead the people and, and Jethro says, this is gonna kill you, you're just trying to lead everybody, but people and you know, put people over 10s, I might get these numbers wrong. Some people can lead 10, some people can lead 50, some people can lead hundreds, there's a limit to our leadership has eliminated my leadership and knowing where that is, at any moment in time. And it's not just the number of people, but but it's how I can lead etc. Knowing where that is that self awareness is really good, because it helps me think about, well, if God calls me to lead at another level, what growth is needed in me?
Nathan Benger 27:41
Yeah, because God needs to do that work in me before I can, before I can lead at the next level. And I guess we've, we've kind of coined a phrase from I think we've heard it a Hillsong. Brian Houston healthy things grow. Yeah. And as a leader, we need to be healthy. So kind of just to kind of wrap everything up and bring it What can leaders do to stay healthy, especially in this situation when it feels personal?
Paul Benger 28:07
Yeah. Well, the obvious thing I'm going to say is relationship with God. But I don't just because I say that first. I don't. That's not all you can have and be healthy. So I think your relationship with God is so important, you know, relationship with God's word, just that connection with Jesus, whenever I'm leaning in to God, I find everything else in my life seems to have helped, but also I think, to have friends, and to have friends that you do ministry with, and that you have fun with. laughter is really important. enjoyment is important. And I think I think having that in your life is is so important. Having things that you enjoy outside of, I guess, a Church, the Church world as well just just to live in LA. I've put, you know, we love God. We used to use this phrase a lot at Church and, and I really like it you love God, you love people, but and your love lie. Yeah. You know, and so life is a gift, isn't it? And I know all those things. So if you like sport, if you like what, whatever you just, you just enjoy those things. You don't let you don't let the discouragement disappoint you crowd in on those things. And then the other thing I'll just mention again, is just that sense of forgiving. You know, the leader has to forgive people. I remember struggling many years ago with forgiveness, I would harbour the discouragement that disappointment. And again, I've said it a few times today but I heard somebody say this phrase forgive every person everything every day. And it's just stayed in my mind. Again, one of those phrases is just a few of them. Forgive every person, everything everyday and absorbed. try as best as I can not always succeeded. What true Yeah, so to try and do that, but I think loving, loving God, loving people, which is the friends thing. Yeah, I'm loving life. I think that Maxim is fabulous. keep us healthy. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 30:13
Well, that's it for this episode. And it's been great to chat around this topic. Every leader has their leavers. And if this helped you, then please get in touch. Let us know. You can find on IKON dot Church forward slash open PDF of those notes from that staff meeting, as well as you'll be able to find all the show notes for the Church explained podcast. Let me encourage you to rate review, subscribe, do whatever wherever you're consuming this content and please share this maybe this will help a Church leader maybe you've been having a conversation with someone even around this subject, and this would help them then please share it and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Church explained podcast.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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