CEP 14: HEALTHY LEADER = HEALTHY CHURCH. WITH GUEST SIM DENDY

Sep 20

By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger

Welcome to Episode: 14 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.

In this episode, we chat with Lead Pastor Sim Dendy from Freedom Church. Sim shares vital insights from his book Simple Church to help you stay emotionally and spiritually healthy as a leader.

DISCLAIMER - We had a minor audio issue, but the content is so good we do not want you to miss out. We hope you enjoy it!

FULL TRANSCRIPT

David Mckeown 0:00

Welcome, everyone to the Church explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. On today's podcast. We're very excited. We've got Pastor sim dandy heads up freedom Church, and he's going to share on the podcast of why as a leader, you need to be healthy if you want to grow a healthy Church.

David Mckeown 0:24

I'm Dave.

Nathan Benger 0:25

And I'm Nathan. And we are your hosts on the Church explained podcast and today we are joined on the podcast by the man the myth, the legend, Mr. Sim Dendy sim has been a Church leader for over 20 years and is I'm reading a little bio I've got here of your sim you're a presenter and communicator, speaking regularly at conferences and churches around the UK. He's also part of the leadership team for spring harvest and the senior leader of freedom Church based in Rumsey in the UK. So welcome Sim. It's good to have you with us. Why don't you just share a little bit more about yourself, your family and maybe your leadership role?

Sim Dendy 1:08

Yes, thank you very much. Good to be with you. Thank you, Dave. Thank you. Nice. It's good to be in your podcast. Yes, Ty leader freedom Church here in the south coast of England. And marriage Lottie. This will be our 25th wedding anniversary this year. If we get to go anywhere next month, who knows, but we are hoping to celebrate in some way. And I've got four children, I call them children, but kind of got two fellows and a couple of girls. So my boys are 22 and 19. And hopefully trying to remove them from the home slowly. So Exactly. By flow into my my, my amazing children

Nathan Benger 1:40

is amazing. That's amazing. And debut recently Well, I read his book simple Church. Yeah. Maybe when my dad got sent a free copy. Sorry, sir. But no, but you read it recently as well.

David Mckeown 1:56

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I picked it up recently. And I was really touched with this idea of healthy leadership, healthy Church. And that's what we want to talk about on the podcast today. Yeah, toggle Ryan, that idea. And you had a great quarter in there? Well, you're probably logically quarter now. But what I want to pick up on is, as you said in the book, that a healthy Church leader can take this illusion group of believers and give them life on direction. So I think it's a brilliant quote. And I just wondered if you could speak into that a little bit around this idea of healthy churches, healthy leaders, and how they connect together?

Sim Dendy 2:35

Yeah, I think one of the helpful ways to look at these things is to flip them around as well. And so an unhealthy Church leader, can bring disillusionment that can bring damage can bring people down. And just the same way, a leader that's got the energy and life that is connected to the Spirit of God, I can take a group of people have lost their way, and say, here's the way forward. And you think about the story of Moses, you know, when he goes to the people of Israel, and they they've been slavery for 400 years, he goes, there's another way of doing this. Well, you think about Nehemiah and, and the story they admire, when he comes onto the disillusion group of people, he goes, we could build this wall, I can do it take, what 52 days will be done. And these people who've been there for 70 years ago, seriously. And so a leader can bring so much to a group of individuals. And I think we often underestimate the power of leadership, both in its health, and it's also negativity, the power to bring some possibilities. And I've had this experience myself, you know, I took on the Church about the moment and it lost its way is it found yourself in a very difficult place, and the previous moves have been unhealthy, physically unwell for some years. And as approaching retirement age, took on the Church and I looked around never seemed like they were flagging, they were tired, they were worn out. But within a matter of weeks, if not months, suddenly, people's heads were up, they were not believing it was possible, again, that we could affect our community who could make a difference. And suddenly, everything changed. And it wasn't done anything particularly special. I just set a bit of a trajectory of expectation of vision, and hopefully healthy within myself. And I do believe you

David Mckeown 4:14

can turn the community around. And clearly you've seen that so not what you're saying in your own Church setting. You've went in there, and you've made a difference. But you've also touched a little bit there. And this idea of that can help but on the opposite, like you can have a Church leader who can go in and they can cause I suppose if we say damage within here, yeah. Tell us a little bit about maybe what you've seen in your own own expansion of don't give up names today. We don't want you to do that. For just show a level that avoid, you know, what you've seen, because I think you're right, that is true, really can hurt both edges of their economy.

Sim Dendy 4:53

Well, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Leadership is powerful. And power can be used to harm it and to also to celebrate it. To build. And so when it's when it squashes people, it's unhealthy when it lifts people up, it's really healthy. And, you know, I wouldn't talk about names, certainly, but I could talk about one name, which would be john Wesley, john, john, when he started the Methodist Church. And he took it from a non existing, he founded the Methodist Church, and it was there to support the Anglican Church in grew and it blossomed. But when john Wesley died, the Methodist Church said, we will never allow anyone to have that much power again. And so now the Methodist Church I worked with for a number of years, they won't have an annual president, who each year gets rotated around to ensure that no one ever has that much power. And they don't stop things going wrong. But then the flip side is you miss out on the possibility of what could go right. And I understand why they did it. But I'm just not sure it's the right reason. And I think someone says what we do have fear a leader might do with power, we then say, let's not have any of that happening anymore. Let's reduce leadership. And I believe leadership is ultimate should be one of loving and serving and helping others around you. And when it's unhealthy, we're going to have accountability and structures to remove someone when it gets to a place with unhelpful, but it comes down to the the heart of the leader. If as a leader, you are Jesus centred, if you are other people centred, then you will lead Well, if as a leader, you are self centred, self motivated, what can I get out of this position? What can I achieve? What can I gain, then that's where every decision starts getting just twisted slightly, oh, this will suit me and my family more, this will suit me my bank balance more, this will suit me and my holiday plans more rather than actually what the needs the people. So for instance, our present scenario in freedom Church here where we're coming out of a season of lockdown, we're trying to recreate new ways of doing the Church, we've gone into multi site, multi locations, and we've gone from one online service, which I was away from attend class 11 in the morning, we were done. And suddenly we go up we go multi Church, multi site, multi location we stream live to these different places, is more complexity is more challenging. And we could go up, it's just hard work. It doesn't suit my needs, I probably do less work for the same amount of pay. But actually, no, we're here to serve others. We're here to serve the communities around us, and not for our own personal benefit. So when leisure becomes healthy, it becomes self centred. When it's healthy, other people centred,

Nathan Benger 7:30

how can I lead? I think what you what you're talking about is really, really important in terms of the focus and the heart of the leader, as you called it. And I guess in this moment, as well, we've seen so many leaders who have faced issues and faced problems because it has become self centred, maybe even a little bit ego driven, if we could use that term, a little bit ego driven and been part of that. So just just flipping back at you mentioned some words like caring and serving, I guess these would be kind of Jesus's model of leadership. But I wonder if you just dive into that a little bit more is what is the model of Jesus's leadership? And how do we grab that as leaders today?

Sim Dendy 8:17

Yeah, I think exactly right. Jesus did model incredible leisure Are you think about what he did? 2000 years later, we have a global movement started by Jesus and his small crew of followers. It's incredible. And we're all here today as followers of Jesus, because someone else led us to meet him. And so it's something passed down from generation to generation incredible. So for me, one of the things Jesus did was he led by example. And so he never did something expected other that, you know, wasn't doing already. He went, he went further. And I think as leaders, often we can go you still go that way. But no, you need to lead. And so it starts by you going first, if you're not willing to put your hand in your pocket, to put your money in the offering, don't expect anyone else to put their money in. It's not going to happen. Jesus went first to God early, he prayed. He spoke gently to those on the edge of the community where others were pushed him out. And he said, let the children come to me, don't hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to those such as these. And he set an example. He served, he went and he healed those on the edges. He went to the sick, he went to the women of women, the well he went to the woman caught in adultery, he went to the leper colony. And he spoke to people that the community don't don't do that he led by example, he ate with sinners. He sat around a table and he raised a glass of freshly turned water into wine. With all the you know, the different people there the Samaritan is you know, they're the stories he told and the people he led by example. And I think that's often as leaders we don't always appreciate what we do by example. And let me tell you a story that it makes me look in a good light. You'll understand me to tell the story because I go tell stories about myself. This moment where I met a guy who Leah Church, he was starting a Church. So I remember you, he said, I came to a big conference once where he was speaking. And you were really impacted me. And I said, What did I say? I can't remember what I said here, though, it wasn't what you said. It was later on after you'd spoken, I was in the corridor, and I was holding an empty coffee cup. And I didn't know where to throw it in the bin was. And I just said to me here, let me take that I took the cup from him, and I threw it in because I knew the building. And he blew him away. I would take his coffee cup. I mean, just got off a platform and spoken. And now I just thought nothing of I'm not going, why would you not help someone who's just just looked a bit lost? You know, they've just visited the building, and I helped them out. But that blew me away much more than my words on this day. Yeah. And I think some days, like you say, with celebrity culture, we think we stand on a stage we look good, we sound good, then that will be enough. It's not enough. And I think what Jesus did was he led by example, he was the real deal throughout, he wasn't just a nice words on the certain amount, he always carried out what he said he would do himself as well as expect others to do the same. And so the challenges and two are willing to serve others. Great. And sometimes, and this might change anyone listening who wants to be a leader? Start by putting yourself in the place where you're serving what you don't want to do it. You know, I'm always reminded that story of Jesus tells the story of two sons. And the dad goes to one sons, everybody helped me when he goes, Yeah, sure. And and he doesn't help. Then he goes to the next sun, the sun goes, now I'm not gonna do that. But he helps anyway. And I think what God is God is interested in that our just willingness to go, I'm going to do this anyway. Yeah. And are we willing to serve God's people anyway? Are we willing to clean up people's mess before they arrive? And after they go? Or do we just want to swanning late and turn up? But everything's been set up for us? Are we willing to put the chairs out? Or do we just want to have the microphone and and I think that's a challenge to all of us, however, advanced we are in our ministry experience, we're never to advance to become more like Jesus to get on our knees and to serve those around us.

David Mckeown 12:07

Great idea that and you mentioned in your burger, there's like four hallmarks you say, of leadership, you want to just talk a little bit more into those, what are those four hallmarks? So if people are listening, maybe even the listen to the podcast and thinking, oh, maybe I need to do a little bit of a check on my own life, which is good to do, you know, how am I serving? What am I doing? What are the other hallmarks Do you think a leader should be looking for in their lives? Now, let's be upfront and stolen from others. Okay,

Sim Dendy 12:37

so like an artist Hybels talks about the three C's of of leadership. And so they're quite famous character, competency and chemistry. And I think there's a whole conversation there. But with that character, who are you in? no one is watching you. Who are you when you think you're by yourself as a character? And, you know, I'm always looking out for leaders, and I'm looking out for them, not when they're on the platform, but when they're just doing other things. Who is listening to them? Are they gathering people, when they do things to other people follow and copy what they're doing? And so I'm always looking out at people just are they serving? Look out for people in need, they go to what the ages of the community? And I'm always looking for the character of somebody who are you when no one is watching you? So I tried to watch when people think I'm not watching. That sounds like a stalker, I get that. And I asked myself the question, when I was watching, is it okay to be impressive when you you're meant to be impressive, because people have asked you to stand and speak to a community of people. But who am I when you know, my family aren't even watching when I'm by myself? When I'm in my head with my own thoughts? What am I like then? So the character is really important. I think you can't replace character with anything else. But another important part, which I think sometimes in the Christian world, we ignore this B, we go always always got character, then the rest of it doesn't really matter. competency is really important. Are you good at what you do? Yeah. And just saying, Oh, well, they're a nice person. That's not good enough. Oh, they're really good when no one's watching great air, but can even do the job. You know, are they able to do it? You know, do they lead people? Well? Are they effective? Do they? Do they communicate effectively? Do they respond well, and so their competency is really important. And then the third one is about chemistry. Do you fit in with the organisation? Do you fit in with others because all very well, being a great leader, great character, great ability, just but if you just don't fit, you're, you're always going to be frustrating to others and frustrating yourself, you'll find yourself going, I just hit hitting the brick wall all the time. But for the 40 I did in the book was what about calling and I think this is so important. If as a leader, you are called to do what you are doing. When I say calling. I mean, you just know God has spoken to you. This is what you're meant to be doing. It's your gut feel that when those days come and you get that really aggressive email or someone just says something about you or your family member But, or someone just absolutely hammers you for something you've said or book you've written or whatever it is you've done. It can, you know, the greatest person can just you know, shrivel if they don't remember, God called me to do this, he asked me to do this. And we spoke earlier about Moses and God called Moses, Moses to face all kinds of different trials with Pharaoh, and had to keep reminding yourself, this is what God has called me to do. And so it's been so important me personally, as a leader, when I've hit hurdles and challenges to remind myself, This is not my plan. This is God's plan. I'm called to do this is not my desire. And I would say that's essential. So we have great character, great competency, great chemistry. But ultimately, I always say to leaders, or people who say, I feel like I should be a leader, I said, Do you know God's calling on your life, if you know God's calling, the rest of it, we can work out.

Nathan Benger 15:51

That's amazing. I love that, what you just said at the end, if you know God's calling, the rest of it, we can work out. And I guess the the power in the call in Part of that is that in the moments where you do feel like you know, I want to give up, actually, it's not an option. You might feel like it, but it's not an option. I'm called to you this, I'm called to do this. So we're talking healthy leader, unhealthy Church. We've looked at those four hallmarks of healthy leadership, what would you say are the hallmarks of a healthy Church?

Sim Dendy 16:28

I mean, this is this is the whole crux of simply Church, the book that I wrote. So I'll try and sum up briefly, for the sake of time, but I was I would encourage anyone who wanted to create a healthy Church to look straight at chapter 242, to 4075, the most powerful verses for any chapter you can read. And, and I would, I would argue, if your Church does not reflect that, then you still have some work to do. And I would probably say we all still have some work to do. Because I've written in the book, there's, there's these 10 hallmarks that exists in Acts chapter 242, to 47, that are central to today's Church, it may be a different era, but I still think is relevant today. So we should be people that preach the Word of God. I think that's essential. We should be people where there's fellowship and community and family belonging, where I think there's importance around food we've listed since last season, the impulse to eat together from that to sit around a table and just relax together know one another properly, to pray, not just as a kind of a start meeting, but as a habit as a culture where people have prayer, for all of signs and wonders, the move of the Holy Spirit and power, the charismatic movement was not just a thing of the 70s, or the 90s of the Toronto Blessing of God and His Spirit wants to move into moving outside churches. meeting together regularly gathering don't put off the time of gathering of the two or three, gather my presence, those things are really important, he's a gather. And then the one that this gets difficult the sharing everything you have had, what's mine is yours, if I've got something you need it, you can have it to an end, to live generously to have an open wallet to be the first person to buy the round the drinks, you know, if you can get to a pub, that sort of thing you can do to live generously. And then last to about how do we worship St. God focused on focused on God and His purposes. And then they also met in homes. There's something about meeting in homes where you are known. And I know that it's not everyone's thing that we go meet in a coffee shop true. But what do you meet in someone's house, if you came to my house, you would learn so much more about me, you know, the way that my family can, you know, operate, the way that my house is laid out, the things are on my walls and how I welcome you in and whether I give you a nice drink, or whether I try and copy off for the cheap, something that makes a difference in meeting and try to be more known, so more vulnerable. So those 10 hallmarks obviously, every Church used to have these churches, this vibrant community of believers. But it looks like the early Church just in a modern way of doing

Nathan Benger 19:05

it. And we and we see some that a couple of your favourite movies are Rocky Balboa and Greece. They're on the wall to the left.

Sim Dendy 19:17

This is Yeah, we call this a danger. We've got like a screen up so we can watch films and when we put them my wife loves interior decoration. She said, you know, everyone gets to choose their favourite movie I and yeah, Rocky. I've managed to persuade my son Levi, you want to crease together? You can't. Very good I

David Mckeown 19:33

thought I thought you're just gonna be Greece actually. Hey, some some great stuff there a couple other things. Just a droid of that. I mean, if if they are the hallmarks of a healthy Church. Do you think a Church or like a Church? Do you think they should track those things? And if so, what would you recommend? Let's say a Church is watching Church leader to think and Yeah, sounds great that but I really get the The work in my setting, you know, should they track them

Sim Dendy 20:03

this day? This is this is probably the toughest question, because I think it's overwhelmed having principles and ideas, and we can theorise and writes books about stuff. But when the rubber hits the road, how do you measure stuff? Because you don't measure stuff that he never actually had. He never actually counted doesn't count. You know, people are, are more than numbers, I get that people are more important than any spreadsheet or pie chart 100%. But if you don't count things you've got no track of is this actually working? Are people really, and this is not about bums on seats and cash in the bank? The other two things often checked is because you can you can work those out. But trying to answer is our Church, more in love with Jesus today than they were a year ago? is a harder thing to answer the question, do we have a culture of prayer, not just prayer meetings? These are tough questions. I'll be more generous Church. And that isn't just about Did you give away from your budget? But did I give away from my pocket? And is this? Is this now seeping into the hole of the Church life? We do have a generous community. So absolutely right. These are tough questions. So metrics are really helpful are important. But they don't show everything. And I would say 100%. And yes, you should track things you should track numbers, you should track health and attendance, and all those kinds of things. But you cannot beat as a Church leader, being in the room with people you cannot be actually face to face looking so in the eye and go, how are you actually doing. And you've got to know your Church, you cannot sit in an ivory tower as a leader and read spreadsheets, and be a remote leader. And I know it's like because there's lost in the pandemic, I've had to almost do leadership by remote control. And you don't know who's watching your numbers on a screen, but who are those numbers. But when you start to go outside and get to see someone to get to walk with them, you get to, you know, look on the I know, for me these last few weeks having Church open up again, and be able to go around to different locations to catch the vibe in the room to see what's really going on in people's yards just to go, how are you doing? And just to kind of look at them and sense what God is doing. No metric tells you that. And so I say metrics are important. But you must know your Church, you know, Shepherd us know it's sheep, you can't just know your spreadsheets. So it's not very helpful answers some ways. It's profound. Yeah, but this count, let's count actually freshy

Nathan Benger 22:29

as well. Now, I love that don't don't just look at your spreadsheets, but look at your sheep. Second quarter is a great book. Yeah. And maybe maybe that's your next books, which is really great. And I guess it goes back. If I was just to kind of link it back to right at the start where we were talking about, you know, being a healthy leader. I guess a healthy leader and you know, and that kind of celebrity culture, even ego pride would stay away from, you know, kind of the conversations with people. But actually being a healthy leader leads you to that place of asking those questions. How are you doing? Would you agree with that, sir?

Sim Dendy 23:12

100% Yeah, you know, if you're not healthy as a leader, you will create an unhealthy Church. Right, we said the beginning. And I think this is so important. I think myself as leader when I know when I'm in a good place spiritually, physically, emotionally relationally vocationally, with my finances, I know when I'm in a good place, I lead better. I impact people more. I can create greater leadership. I can ask you no good questions or people. We're not a bad place. Yeah, I'm an avoidance behaviour. I'm trying to, you know, make excuses. And I'm ignoring other people's behaviour as well, because I think I can't call them out. Because my behaviour, my action sucks. Why should I? You know, so? So I think you're absolutely right. And if I can recommend one book is not mine. I would I would miss is the emotionally healthy leader by pizza, Bizarro. Absolutely, absolutely. First Class. Let me tell you an honest story. I've just been rereading that book and I was ready and I said to my wife, so I should have read that book five years ago when it first came out. I've wasted those five years because that's such a good book. Every leader should be reading and understanding about their own well being. And then here's the embarrassing thing. I went through my bookshelves the other day, I was doing a little bit of kind of like just tidying up and I realised I bought the book when it first came out and never allowed them I left on my shelf and then I just picked it up again. I bought another copy. And I realised I just bought a copy put on the shelf went oh that I'll get round to that. And I think as a leader you've got to invest in yourself to do find books to read God's plan for your well being by Dave Smith super but we're running through as a Church the moment excellent anything by Ruth Haley Barton strengthen the soul of your leadership. brilliant book, but the Spirit Pete's Bizarro, the emotionally healthy, that is super and it will get you to Honest questions and get some accountability. I think the challenge of being a Church is often you think, Oh, I'm at the top of my organisation, where do I go for accountability? Find people beyond yourself. And I have people I meet with regularly, I go to regularly and saying, help me. Am I on track here and ask good questions of my leadership. But, you know, it's so this is, honestly, this is so important. You know, we talked before at mumps and measles. You know, as a leader, if you say you've got mumps, but you actually got measles, the people in your Church will catch what you're carrying. And if you're carrying something unhealthy, they will catch that if you are a generous person, if you are worshipping, God centred person, if you're somebody who prays regularly, they will catch what you're carrying carry. And so it starts with you as a leader, I wish there was an easier way. I wish you could just do the metrics, I wish you could just do a beautiful service with a nice platform presentation or a really good talk and you're done. But the truth is, it starts with you as an individual. And if I'm in a good healthy place, or my Church will go healthy as well,

David Mckeown 26:02

as well. So much brilliant. Hey, we're about to wrap up in a moment. But before we do, you've mentioned two things there. You know, in regards to leader in the sense, if they're doing a bit of a check, you've mentioned, they need accountability, and they need self investment, to sort of grow as a healthy leader, anything else you would throw in there that you think, Hey, here's a couple other things you can look at, to make sure you're healthy as a leader.

Sim Dendy 26:29

Yep, don't get isolated. I think the biggest challenge is when leaves get isolated, I think what happens is we withdraw when we know we're not healthy. And we go into a downward spiral. What we need to be doing is dying, connecting and reaching out to our peers and our friends and other and that's why it's important to have friends in a leader other churches and saying, Can you help me, that's why it's important to go to leadership conferences and to connect and build relationships and networks beyond yourself to inspire yourself to other things. So obviously, don't get isolated. When you get isolated. You then become your own worst critic. You know, you can you can pull everything apart on a Monday morning. And you need other people to say when I look into your community, and I look into your leadership, I see really good things. And here's what I can tell you. So don't get isolated, do get connected, build friendships, you know this, this is a it's a tough gig being a Church leader. It's a tough gig, we need some friends, we need people that actually like us are being who we are. And we enjoy being with them. So you know, pick up the phone, arrange a coffee, pay for the coffee yourself or pay for those yourself, invite someone around and engage with people and don't get isolated. We're our worst when we're by ourselves.

Nathan Benger 27:39

Or what a great episode that has been together. And we want to thank you sim Sim, just reminders of the name of your book, and also where people may be able to find you on social media, etc.

Sim Dendy 27:52

Yeah, so my book is simply Church with new fancy pink cover, we just redid a version of it with a whole piece around weathering the storm regarding the issue of COVID. And the pandemic, how do you face a storm as a Church and get through it? And so that's a really helpful piece and three practical things in there as well. And my kids laugh at me it's not about all my stuff is all under my name Sim dendias No, we're names if you want to find our social media accidentally gets me on all platforms. I'd love to engage and I'm keen to support leads any way that we can to serve to make sure the Church grows stronger as leaders grow

Nathan Benger 28:29

healthier. But it's been great to be together today and we want to thank sim again and want to thank you for listening please rate review, subscribe and even share this to anyone that it would be helpful this conversation around healthy leader and healthy Church, and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Church explained podcast

Transcribed by https://otter.ai