CEP 17: With Guest Bob Prichett. Leadership & Business Lessons
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
Welcome to Episode: 17 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.
Join us for this episode as we chat with Bob Prichett (Founder of Logos Bible Software). Bob shares his insights from building a successful business that you can use as you seek to grow your leadership.
SHOW NOTES - TALK IT OVER
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to church explained podcast a conversation to develop your leadership and grow your Church. In this episode, we're going to talk about leadership and business lessons to help grow your Church. We're joined today with the founder of faithlife, the CEO, Bob Pritchard. Now let me show you a little bit of information by Bob. He began coding at the age of eight, that seems a long time ago, but actually started coding then. And Brian, by the age of 15, he developed the first Bible software where people could search the King James Bible. And that's pretty amazing at that age. And then after that, he went on to university Drexel University, where he studied computer science. He was an intern at Microsoft for two years. And in his time there with his friend, they developed the first logos, Bible software. I'll tell you what, a lot of pastors are happy for this. So Bob is now developed the whole logo system, as joined by Faith Life Technologies, and it is growing brand that will help support your Church. Hi, I'm
Nathan Benger 1:10
Dave. And I'm Nathan.
David Mckeown 1:12
We're the hosts of the church explained podcast. Today we're joined by Paul Pritchard, the President and CEO of fairplay started programming computers at the age of it and help us some stuff. Ryan should have librarians working with his mother there. And 1986 At the age of 15, develop the first Bible software programme, which allowed users to search the King James Bible. And then after that, I went to university at Drexel University in Philadelphia, merging into computer science, you were an intern with Microsoft for a couple of years. And during that time, a guess with your friends, you began to develop the first part of logos, Bible software. And of course, that's really grown that started in 1992. And from that time, it's grown to real success to be led and the different technologies onto the fifth life Braun. So we're excited to have you here, Bob. And we're going to talk about leadership and the lessons that you can help teach leaders and pastors are maybe connected in today. Yeah, they help them grow their churches. So welcome, Bob.
Bob Prichett 2:20
Yeah, thank you.
Nathan Benger 2:22
Yeah, age of eight. What like programming software? Compute? I mean, that's amazing. Why don't you just tell us a little bit more about yourself, your family and your role, and Ellsberg.
Bob Prichett 2:34
So I grew up in the Church, and I went to Christian schools. And so I had Bible class five days a week, and then on Sunday school on Sunday. And that's one of the reasons I got interested in computerising Bible study was, I was tired of looking things up in those big heavy concordances, where you had to go to search things by word. So I love the idea of a computer being able to do that search. My parents were heavily involved in the Church and you know, taught classes and were in leadership. So you know, Bible study was a big part of the the context I grew up in. And now I'm married, I have two kids, and who are adults and out of the house, and just still working on the same project. I started when I was a teenager.
Nathan Benger 3:21
Wow. It's amazing. And I mean, on behalf of probably the whole Church, and especially pastors and preachers, thank you for the logos, Bible software, because that does help us massively. Why don't you just share a little bit about the vision of faith life. And also, you know, we've heard that that is an incredible company to work for. So like just delving into the why people would say that's a great place to work.
Bob Prichett 3:50
Sure. Our mission of faith life is to use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible. And that's really behind everything we're doing. And for many years, our main product and only product was logos, Bible software. And since then, we've expanded into proclaim presentation software for the Church, to do you know, Church, song lyrics and announcements and things like that on manage the screen in the sanctuary. But even there and proclaim, we found ways to kind of bring the Bible into that we have an onscreen Bible feature that actually navigates the Bible on screen instead of just taking verses and copying and pasting them on pretty backgrounds. We can do that too. But we wanted to keep that idea of context and continuity when a Pastor is working through a passage. And now we're building the faith life. Faith Life equip, which is a full integrated ministry platform that connects Bible content with Church management tools, website, hosting online giving all of these different features. And for us, it's really about keeping the Bible front and centre so I'm really excited that that our employees are on board for the mission and everybody is super clear. It tells us what to do. It tells us what not to do, and As a company, I think the other thing that really drives us is our values. So our values are honesty, openness, awesomeness, growth, initiative, elegance, and shipping. And they conveniently spell out hoagies, which is kind of like a submarine sandwich from Philadelphia, where I'm from. And we call that a hoagie in Philly. And the hoagies values really, again, drive, what we do, how we make decisions, and just kind of keep us centred. And one things that I think is interesting about the culture and values is some of those are intention, right? Like, so many good things in life are our intention, right? The desire to get something shipped and out the door is in intention with making it awesome and elegant. Right. But we we live with that tension every day. And I think that's, that's the work is to wrestle with that tension, and see, how do we make it, you know, awesome, and elegant, and get it shipped? You know? And the same thing with the dealing with, you know, how open do you, you know, are you as a company versus the what you need in order to, you know, build an awesome product or, or surprise people with something beautiful and elegant. And dealing with that every day is, is a challenge, but also fun.
David Mckeown 6:15
So, so while it's good to hear about the company, why do you think that people love to work at your company?
Bob Prichett 6:22
I think many people are there because of the mission alignment, right? They, they, they want their work to have purpose, right for for years, we used to and still do as a recruiting slogan for software developers write code that matters, right? Software developers are kind of, you know, it's interesting hybrid of artists and scientists and you, you're writing, writing code that often is kind of boring, right? There's so much software that that isn't super exciting with what it has to do, right? Internal Business Systems, and you know, all these other things. And we're writing software that helps people do more and better Bible study, right? We're writing software that helps the Church be more effective in its ministry, and do a better job of helping pastors take care of people. And I think that that sense of mission gets people excited. And then that place where you know, what the values are, whether they're crystal clear, you know, a lot of companies have value statements, but they're just some plaque on the wall that nobody's read in a long time, or, or remembers what they say. And when your values are deeply embedded, and they're constantly reinforced. And when they're cited in meetings, I think that that, that changes the culture, and it gets people you know, excited, right? You want to be somewhere where, where things are clear what we're doing, what we're trying to accomplish, what the guide rails are on, you know, behaviour and expectations. And that the more clarity we have around that, I think the stronger the company culture is, and the more people want to be part of it. And if anything, I wish we could, we need to keep getting better at that we need to be talking about the more and and making it more constant. And that's what you know, turns it from, you know, a job to, you know, a passion you can be excited about and look forward to every morning.
Nathan Benger 7:59
So that would be values, that will be something, just thinking of churches, really, and helping churches to grow, values would be a key for you in communicating all the time. Constantly. You mentioned in meetings, but it's like front and centre, would that be correct?
Bob Prichett 8:17
Yeah, I think that, that any organisation that has a clear set of who we are and who we are, that's valuable, right? And of course, for the Church, we've got the Bible centre, right, it can answer a lot of questions. But within that context, there's still a lot of different ways you can be right, are you you know, are you reserved? Are you effervescence, you know, are you know, how, you know, what's important to you in style, and, you know, how your kind of corporate personality presents, and we talk a lot about that, too, we have a corporate personality, right, as a company, who do we want to be to our customers? How do we want to be perceived, you know, I, I talk a lot about, you know, if, if, you know, the company went to your high school, which you know, which stereotype would they be in your high school? And, and I think that that, even, you know, for churches, right, churches have different styles, right, some churches are more formal, and some churches are more casual, and they have different things that they're known for some, it's it's about service, and some it's about teaching. And And people sometimes go to different churches to different phases of their lives, right to when they need different things in their life, right when they're raising kids that might be different than you know, when they were in college or another stage of life. And I think that it's it's always hard to be all things to everyone. And by finding kind of, you know, what your values are, who you are, as an organisation, it, it brings in the people who should be with you, and in some ways, particularly in a business pushes out the people who shouldn't be with you. And there's somewhere else that they might be better fit.
David Mckeown 9:47
I guess I can be a little bit of like Church content. When we have a certain set of values in a Church context that can do the same other people will align to those values, the side of the Church or they will possibly go elsewhere? And that's, that's part of life really isn't? Yeah. I think there's a lot of similarities. Isn't Orion business and growing a business and actually going to Church? Because there's a lot of the CM elements in there. Yeah, and I know Bobby often talk about this idea of, are we look into the right teachers? Can you share a little bit about that, you know, you know, where we look into, you know, we look into success, or we look into failures, the teachings.
Bob Prichett 10:27
So I love to read about the organization's business history, right business histories of, you know, a specific niche, and I spend a lot of time in business history. And, you know, as you alluded to there, one of my favourite things is reading failure stories, right? There's so many, you know, heroic biographies, and you know, the story of someone's triumph from nothing to huge success. And there's things to learn from that. And those can be interesting stories. But I think one of the things you learn is there's also some randomness in that there's, you know, there's things that are out of our control, whether it's, you know, God directing it in the way he he's chosen to, or the, you know, it's not things that always there's not always a cause and effect, that you can directly trace. But I think that there's a, there's much more often a cause and effect and a failure story, right? When you read about a business that, that that flopped, or someone raised $100 million to start a new enterprise, and then it, it fails, and all the money is lost. I mean, the lessons in those kinds of books are, I think, even more valuable. And I think that we don't spend enough time in the business world, talking about failures and looking at them, right. I think that happens sometimes in case studies in business schools or things like that. But, you know, business press tends to be full of, you know, of the the heroic stories of accomplishment. And I think that when we look in the Bible, right, we see a lot of failure stories, right? We see a lot of the characters in Scripture, being very human and failing to accomplish what they wanted to or not living up to, to the standards that they needed to. And that's very instructive. And I think it's a good pattern we should be looking for, as we build organisations as well to say, you know, not just How did someone grow that Church to have such a huge impact? But how did that Church that was making a difference in its community fall apart? How did they they go from, you know, serving 1000s of people each weekend to, you know, to kind of disappearing as an institution, and studying that I think, can be super instructive.
Nathan Benger 12:22
Yeah, I think it's really helpful. Because, like you say, we do look at success stories, and we look at, you know, even even just my generation, you get, you get blog posts, which would be 10 ways I was successful, or 10 ways we made this grow, or 10 ways we made it work. And I wonder if there's some blog posts that need to be written are 10 ways that I failed, that help others do that, I think, yeah, like learning from failures is a big thing. And especially in today's culture, where we want to highlight that it's okay to fail. And that you can learn through failure, I think is a big thing.
David Mckeown 13:00
And maybe not to be frightened, the fear. see, the failure is a lesson and stuff we can learn from it, rather than learning from failure. You know, what can we learn from it, they often say, you know, lean into your failure, see what you can learn from them. And I think that's right, when it comes to churches, well, we need to be willing to embrace that and offer you, Bob, you often talk about this idea of when you're in your workplace, and you talk about rapid decision making. And it got me thinking a lot of our Church because some churches are very slow at making decisions, and therefore miss many opportunities. Could you share a little bit about that process of robot decision making and how you think it could maybe even help Church leaders?
Bob Prichett 13:47
I like to think of it as as like, there's, there's this, people are on this journey, right? And you talk to people, where do you want to be in five years, right, a classic interview question or something like that. And people, everybody's got this vision of where their institution or themselves they are five or 10 years from now. So well, you know, five years from now, I'd like our Church to be, you know, serving, you know, a couple 1000 people in our community and having all these different things happening. So great. So, you know, what are you doing about that today? Well, you know, today, I'm busy with, you know, these tasks that I have on my task list. And, you know, I've got five years to get to that. And I think that the mistake we make we all make is we tend to think of, of the, the, the distance between here and our goal as being time, right? Well, you know, here I'm this tiny little organisation, but five years from now will be this successful, effective, you know, ministry or organisation and I've got time to get there. But what gets you there isn't time what gets you there is a lot of changes, right? I mean, you're this way and you need to be that way. And you can't, you know, you don't go from being 100 people to 1000 people overnight, so you have to be 101 people and then 102 people and then 105 People And each of those things is a change whether the change is somebody else walking in the door, or hiring another staff member or, you know, expanding your facility, or whatever it is. So, if change is the is what's going to happen during those five years, you can, you can maybe speed them up by speeding up the changes, right. And each of those changes is just a decision to do the new thing. And, and worse, if you don't make any changes, time doesn't do it alone. And that I think, is the biggest mistake, people think time is going to just fix it right? Over time, these things will happen, say time doesn't have anything to do with it, it's just changes. And you could do all those changes in the next six months, or all those changes over the next 50 years. But it's still going to be the same number of decisions and actions you took. So why not speed them up? And I think we we don't speed them up, because we're afraid of making the wrong decision, right, we're afraid of taking the wrong fork in the road or going doing the wrong thing. But the more decisions you make, and the lighter weight your decision making is, the easier it is to back off, right? You could spend hours, days, weeks months deciding if you should take the left or the right fork in the road. But you know, then you could still be wrong, right? But if you just take one of the forks in the road, and if it turns out to be the wrong fork, if you don't need another three years to decide to go back and go the other way, then it's easy. And I think building that capability to be lightweight in your decision making. You know, you want to make the decision as wisely and thoughtfully and prayerfully as you can. But that doesn't need to take three years, right? You can make that decision and try it out. And if it doesn't work, unmake the decision, which is just another change. So I try to do that my organisation but you know, I'm as human as anyone. And, you know, I every time I talk about this, I think you know, I need to go back and make some more decisions faster. Because I've had plenty of decisions that I spent years on or was way late to. But it's it's why I think we should talk about it is that we just need to be constantly reminded that, you know, that not doing something today is a decision, right? It's the decision to not make a change, which you know, and while it might be unclear to go left or right. The destination is definitely down one of those forks not standing here thinking deeply about it.
Nathan Benger 17:14
I guess it's linked as well to the the point before failure as well. And, you know, being willing to fail, being willing to I'm going to make a decision. And if it if it doesn't work out, or you know, if it does fail, we'll just unmake the decision. And we'll go the opposite way.
David Mckeown 17:33
Yeah, I think that's true. I think often in Church life, people can over spiritualize it. They're willing to hear God speak 10 things before they make a decision. And I think people can be frayed, you know, fearful of, you know, has God spoken to me. And and I think that's going to Stein decision making process. We need to have confidence that God has already spoken. And we just need to go along with it. And I think maybe that's one of the keys, Church leaders can learn actually evolved been thinking, Yeah, we need to have these 10 things for God to speak, then we will move. But by that time we've missed maybe so many opportunities out there to succeed are to feel as as opposed as reality, isn't it?
Nathan Benger 18:15
Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe, for us to move?
David Mckeown 18:19
I think. Definitely.
Nathan Benger 18:21
There's something here, like in the notes around first principles method. And the question we've got for you, Bob, is what lessons can we learn from the first principles method, as we seek to grow as leaders and build the Church?
Bob Prichett 18:39
I'm a huge fan of getting back to first principles, right. And there's, there's lots of ways describing it right in, in all those heroic sports movies, it's the coach that comes in and says, you know, this is a basketball, right? You know, we're gonna go back to the basics of, of passing this ball around. And I think that in, you know, in business, in life, in ministry, in politics, going back to first principles is a really useful thing, just to step back and say, because, you know, we know so much, and then the knowledge accumulates, but but the wrong lessons accumulate as well as the right lessons. And to go back and kind of check. I don't want to throw out what we've learned. But I want to check those things against fundamental principles, right? If what do people care about using my products, like when we're building software? What do I what do i know i think is a first principle, I think people don't actually want to spend a lot of time using software, right? They want to accomplish some task and get it done. And, and they're not here to use the software. They're here to do the task. Right. So one of my first principles is that people want to save time, right? And they don't want to use the tool on building they want the tool to help them do the thing they need to do. Right and remembering that they're not here for the software. They're here for what the software helps them accomplish, you know, informs how we design it all the time, right. The goal of my Church management system is not to build really fully detailed records that I that I nurture and clean and edit and get all the fields correct in, it's to help me reach out to and keep track of administer to the people who visit my Church and our members and need care, right. And so every minute I can take away of maintaining my database and turning that into having an digital tool that tells me when I need to check in on somebody or you know, automates tasks of paperwork and forms and all the overhead, that's the win. And I think that churches the same way, right, it churches can get caught up in so many ministries and programmes and all of these things, many of which are wonderful, great opportunities and ministries. But you know what, it's the first principle that you just need to keep in mind, like, why are people here right to develop a relationship with God, to to be in community to love each other? And the more you keep going back to first principles, the more grounded it keeps everything you're doing. So I said, I think it applies to, to software design, it applies to, you know, product design, it applies to organisational design, right? Why are people coming in the door? And, you know, what, are we? are we addressing that need instead of the things that are part of our, you know, 17 year agenda? Very good. Yeah,
David Mckeown 21:17
I think it's coming back to the why is that we picked up on at the beginning, really around values and V max, like, because if we get lost in stuff, and we forget about the why, why are we here? What's the purpose of the Church? And actually, we can get lost? And so many things come away. Yeah. So we've got to put people first. And I guess that's same in business as well, you know, as you think about your customers, I'm sure you've got an amazing customer service experience that you're building there. Is there anything bought from not from your customer service process that you could share with leaders or pastors that would help them do a better job in the Church?
Bob Prichett 21:58
You know, customer service is super important to us, I think that all businesses and organisations can, you know, are wrestling with this triangle of quality pricing service, right? So in a business context, you can you can offer people quality, or price or service, but it's hard to offer all three, right there. They're kind of intention. And if you think about brands or stores that, you know, right, there's there's one that's known for price, and there's one that's known for quality, but they're rarely the same one, right. And we chose service as the place that we really gonna focus because in software quality can be almost impossible, right? There's so many variables, and so many different computers and so many things that, you know, we are out of our control, you know, we try to build this quality of software as we can, and we try to price it as well as we can. But ultimately, if we provide excellent service, people will, you know, forgive that bug if we can fix it with service, and they will, they will consider it worth the price if the service is awesome. And I think that for us service means getting back to first principles about what people want, right? When you when you call, we try to have the person answer the phone, instead of a computer, we don't ask you to press seven to get to tech support after listen to a long menu. Because if you're having a problem with our tool, and you're frustrated, you want to talk to human being right. That's why you called on a phone, if you wanted to talk to a computer, you could go find a chat bot on the internet, right? You pick up the phone to talk to someone who can help you. So we have a human being answered the phone and a human being help you instead of trying to lead you through tonnes of number menus. And I think in the same way thinking about the, you know, experience of visiting a Church right I, I'm always impressed when I go to a Church that is clearly spent a lot of time thinking about their visitor experience, right? Because it's so easy to think of it as you know, well, I've been coming here for years, I know where everything is that I know how everything works, and to go back and kind of first principles, but customer service attitude and say, hey, if somebody came in off the street, what would their impression of us be? In the same way? Even you know, we help churches with websites, right. And we one of the things we put into our default Church website is a text me directions, right? Like, if I'm looking for churches, I moved into a new community and I'm online looking for churches, i Where is it? I don't know that where that intersection is. And sure, I could copy it to Google Maps. But if you just texted me directions, you know, now they're on my phone, and I can click the link right to my my nav. And the Church also has that first point of contact of knowing where they came in, and making sure we do things like automatically posting the latest sermon if it was recorded and proclaim, we automatically posted to the Church website, which takes time off the Church admin. They don't have to do that every Monday morning, but it gets to that customer experience, right? If I visit a Church website, I want to know the Church is alive, right? And I know it's alive. If it's yesterday sermon is posted on their web site and the calendar is up to date with this week's events. If I don't see a sermon since you know six months ago, and the calendar shows an event that happened two years ago, then then the Church feels dead. Right. And I you know that again, many of us going to the Church regularly never visit the website because we know where it is and we know what's happening and we know this schedule. But if you think about it from that customer service point of view, that person who's new to the community or looking for a new Church home, they don't know any of those things.
David Mckeown 25:09
And I would think that's even more important these days. Because if someone goes to your website, and the last sermon they see is two months ago, they're thinking has this Church closed during COVID? During lockdown, so it's really important. Churches, so we need to make sure that the churches if they don't have an up to date, we have seen a need to do something. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 25:32
Gone, Bob,
Bob Prichett 25:33
I'd say I'll even add something else to it. I spent some time during COVID in another location, and I went online, I, you know, I saw churches as I drove past them in the area, we were staying for a few months. And then, of course, the first thing I did was go online, right to read about the Church. It's amazing how many churches don't answer the question you really have in mind, which is like, you know, they might have a statement of faith. But do they kind of, even if so many churches aren't denominational now, but they don't really tell you kind of what they believe the number of churches that don't tell you how to dress, right, you know, are they formal? And if you show up in jeans, you're gonna feel uncomfortable, or are they casual, and you can wear shorts, right? It's they, there's so many questions you have as somebody who's a stranger. And it was interesting for me to go back to that experience of being a stranger in a new community, and looking for a Church and realising how much I wanted to know about each of those churches before I visited that they were not delivering, right. And so it turned it into, you know, despite growing up in the Church my entire life, it was slightly more intimidating to show up the first Sunday. You know, with all these things I didn't know that I wish I'd been able to find out on the internet.
Nathan Benger 26:35
Now, there's so much, so much in there that Church leaders can grab and grab ahold of, and you mentioned many of the faith life products, you know, websites, logos, Bible software, the Church management software, I wondered if you just share for a moment, like the benefit of those products and services for Church to Church leaders today.
Bob Prichett 26:57
So the faith life equip is this whole integrated ministry platform. And it comes with our proclaim presentation software, our faith life sites, website hosting, faith, life giving, which right now is only the US but we'll be expanding. It comes with digital signage, to manage the TV and the Church foyer to put the latest announcements and news and calendar items up on the TVs. And it comes with Church management and all the tools you need to email and text and communicate with the congregation. Some people use the whole toolkit, some people just use part of it. But the great thing is it's fully integrated. And what's really great is that it's fully integrated to content as well. Because at our heart, you know, he said everything with us is about helping the Church grow in the light of the Bible. Right and coming from logos, Bible software, we embed a we give every congregation in the Church, a lightweight version of logos, Bible software with a small library books we give equip comes with a larger collection of books for the Pastor with logos, Bible software. And then it comes with faith life TV, which is an online streaming service full of both kind of Christian edutainment as well as seminary level courses that are, you know, taught by seminary professors from all over the world, that you can stream on your, you know, on your home television. And for us, that's the real key distinctive is that there's a lot of technology solutions, but they're kind of empty boxes, right? They're just databases you put your data into, we're building this integrated ministry platform, and we think that the content is an important part of that, right? That it's not just about, you know, being able to send everybody at the newsletter by email or paper, it's about getting them engaged in the word, it's about helping them, you know, connect the biblical content as well.
David Mckeown 28:38
And I think that's key because obviously, you know, connecting people to the Bible, you know, all the research shows that such what causes people to grow. So to have all that content available to them. I mean, I have to say, I love logos I've been a user for for many, many years. And yes, I want to thank you for for developing not as it's helped me so many times, I love the fact that can go on. I can even pass a Church, I can do the you know, a word search. And it brings it all to me. And I've got the commentaries there. Yeah. And that's very helpful for a lot of sermon preparation. So said it saved me a lot of time, because I remember having those big concordances, the Strong's or the other ones, and you'd have them all stacked on a desk trying to work your way through. So I think that logos is a no fit like stuff. It's just fantastic. We're like, Yeah, so yeah, thank you for for you and the team for all the work you guys have done over the years. I think it's probably helped a lot more leaders, pastors, and probably even you realise, yeah, so yeah, thank you for that.
Nathan Benger 29:38
And it's been great as we've chatted, and as you've talked about those products and services, we go back to that first question and you talk about values and you just see that all come through. And so amazing. I wondered Bob, if you could say anything to help. A Church leader listening to this, a leader listening to this into growing a healthy Church, what would you You say to them today,
Bob Prichett 30:02
ah, keep the Bible at the centre. Right. That's that's the heart of our mission. And that's, I think that you know, I'm not an expert on Church growth but my observation is the churches were the Bible's at the Centre are strong, right? Because they're it's, it's not being carried by the leadership alone, the whole congregation becomes the becomes the Church, and it's ministering to each other and reaching out in the community. So just keeping the Bible at the centre of everything.
Nathan Benger 30:28
Bob, if people wanted to kind of connect with you on social, how would they do that?
Bob Prichett 30:35
We're at Faith life.com and logos.com elogio s, for the Bible software, and logos you can learn about all the different things we've got going on. And I'm on Twitter at Bob Pritchett, so
Nathan Benger 30:47
write great stuff. Well, it's been great to have you with us on this church explained podcast and it's been great to talk together on you know, kind of those business lessons that help build the Church. I just want to say a big thank you to everyone who's listening today. Just rate review, subscribe, wherever you're listening, share it with people, and make sure you go over and check out everything that faith live has to offer. And we look forward to seeing you next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
