By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger

Welcome to Episode: 05 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.

In this episode, we chat with the Lead Pastor Paul Benger from IKON Church, on church mergers and why you should consider one?

In this conversation, you will find helpful strategies and ideas for successfully leading through a church merger.

Discover how Paul and Dave did this just over one year ago. You will learn about:

The right questions to ask when considering a merger.
The four types of mergers.
Five stages of a merger.

Listen and access the full show notes below or search for The Church Explained Podcast on Apple Podcast or where you get your podcasts and listen for free.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

David Mckeown 0:00

Welcome to the Church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. Our goal on this podcast is to share inspirational insights and ideas to resource leaders churches on themes through our conversations, with key team players in IKON Church, and other invited guests. In this episode, we're going to be talking about Church mergers.

David Mckeown 0:27

Hi, I'm Dave.

Nathan Benger 0:28

And I'm Nathan. And we're your hosts on the Church explained podcast and today we're joined again by lead Pastor of IKON Church, Paul Benger. You've been invited back. Yeah.

David Mckeown 0:39

Wow. That's America. Which is Yeah. Great to have you though.

Nathan Benger 0:43

Yeah. Really good to be here. And in this episode, we're gonna talk about Church mergers, which is fresh in our memory, because just over a year ago, it was meant to be Easter Sunday last year, but through the Coronavirus and all that we took it forward. We actually merged churches. So Dave, you were leading the hook Church? That's correct. Yeah. And that merged with IKON Church just over a year ago. Yeah.

Paul Benger 1:06

And I mean, I want to say it's been a great year. But before we get into that Dave has actually done two mergers. He's the expert. He's the expert he is. And so I mean, Dave was the Pastor of a Church in Stocksbridge. And another Church invited him to become their minister. But instead of just saying yes, and leaving Stocksbridge on now, and stay in, you actually came up with the merge, merging that together. So yeah,

David Mckeown 1:32

that's right. I was back in 2015 2016. And that was quite a new concept, I think, in the UK, and especially in this area to be doing something like that. So I've been leading the Church in Stocksbridge, I think for about 17 years by that time. And we were just about to bring in a new leader. We were about to do another Church plant somewhere else. And then the invite Kim. Really, at that point, we thought I thought to myself, well, why, you know, go there and leave this. Can we connect the two together? Yeah. So this is the second rodeo was? Yeah. Second, second time, Rhine.

Paul Benger 2:10

Yeah. And although it's the first I've done as a leader, I have been involved. I've been involved as a consultant with a couple of others before that, but obviously not, not fully in the workings. So I've got some experience around the table of Church mergers.

Nathan Benger 2:26

So is Church merger, kind of like a new thing? And you know, even new language?

David Mckeown 2:34

Yeah, I think I think certainly the language we're not so familiar with more in the UK, I think maybe in in America and other parts of the world, the idea of a merger. It's used more in the business setting, isn't it? I suppose we would talk more about partnership. Yeah. And autonomy and autonomy. But yeah, but but certainly it is happening. I think more and more, even in the UK setting. Neither churches are they're not bothered so much about the line wage, but they are connecting, they are merging together.

Paul Benger 3:03

Yeah, I agree. I think I think it's on the increase. And not, not massively, but I mean, just been involved in another one. My myself, which actually, which is a UK Church merging within a Church from Australia? Yeah. So I've been involved in in that as well. But yeah, I think it's happening, happening a lot more. But in America, it's been around for quite a while. And, you know, they, in all kinds of different ways. And with with different levels of success as well.

Nathan Benger 3:35

Is that is that because there's been the rise of the multi site, multi campus model, which there is a podcast on in you should check that out. I think that's Episode Two. Yeah. So you should check that out. Go back and check that out. But do you think that's why the Church merges? So even just talking your experience, you will lead in one campus Church and Stocksbridge? And then rather than come and it becomes a multi campus, do you think that's more accessible now? Because that's more? You know, there's more of that about that we know more of?

David Mckeown 4:09

Yeah, I think so. And some of the stats out there are low American, you know, that they say like, 40% of all multi site churches, or a combination of a campus has been started, but also churches merging in Yeah. So I think it is on the rise. And and I, I would suspect that over the next while we're going to see much more of that. Yeah. And because by and large, it can work, you know, if it's done right. And there is strength to it. I think that's the thing. I mean, there's some good questions, churches need to ask themselves when it comes to Church mergers, which we are, as we, as we were partnering together, almost over a year ago, but some of the conversations were happening slightly before that. Yes. And we have asked some good questions. I mean, you know, some of the questions were asked in there, which I suppose that other churches kind of ask them what we'll come back to it. Like, you know, doesn't doesn't make our churches better to gather? You know, that's a good question to ask or, you know, can we accomplish more together? Yeah, we could apart. No equation could ask is, could we extend our reach? And those requests? We were? We were asking.

Paul Benger 5:17

Yeah, and our, our, our, our values aligned. Yeah. And therefore working together isn't going to be difficult. And there's not going to be a, you know, such a massive shift. I think tracking. I think tracking sort of some of the history of where this comes from, as has become, you know, I, if you go back with thinking on Church planting, I think churches, years ago, let's say 3040 years ago, you would plant another Church, and then you would let it go as an independent Church. Well, that shifted to, well, could that be a second campus a second location with some strong connection with us? No. And those connections we won't go into the details can be at various levels. And so so that journey had begun. And, and then that easily then transitioned to churches asking for help and support, potentially becoming, you know, another campus or another location. And then churches actually, that didn't necessarily need help and support. But the idea was, can we work together, you know, come and come together. I think he that journey was made simple because of the Church planting shift in thinking to a more multisite actually merging together to make more besides or to increase multisite. Whether that's people call it location or campus, I think that that became easier to think about it. Yeah.

Nathan Benger 6:48

So if we think about the merge that happened just over a year ago, and, you know, I mean, we'll talk about maybe some of the process, and even some of those questions, we'll get into it. But why we've talked a little bit, and we've highlighted a little bit Well, why was it unique? Hmm.

Paul Benger 7:06

Well, I think there was an existing relationship. Dave and I had been friends for many, many years, we talked, maybe five, six years before about working together at some level felt felt, you know, that we thought very similarly as leaders, but also, you know, what could the what the future holds?

Nathan Benger 7:24

Do you think that's important that there is a relationship there? I'm just, you know, like, if, if, if there is a Church, you know, down the road, or there is a Church somewhere else that likes what you're doing?

Paul Benger 7:36

Do you think actually forming that relationship is a is important? The early I think if it doesn't exist, you've got to give time to it. And that's why we say, and I think you can think you can do that. Yeah,

David Mckeown 7:48

I think you're right, I think it would be difficult for I think it's more difficult for churches comes and said, Can we join you, and then you come and join us in two months time, that that's a bit tricky, really, because there is no connection, there is no relationship, there is no building the gather. And so obviously, we've known each other for what over 10 years or so you don't need that length of time. But that's what made ours I suppose unique, because it was that journey together, we would sit down and have coffee, we talk about all things Church and leadership, and that kind of tie

Paul Benger 8:23

was, but even in that relationship, we spent time and then going through the process, you know, asking questions in the process being being strict, I guess, to ask and answer the questions, honestly, yeah, to go through that process. And that was a, you know, a period of many months. And then obviously, you have to take other people on the journey. So it's great that we had a relationship, personally, but then our leadership teams have got to have relationship, you know, and staff, different staff, people, and so on. So I think relationship is a big thing. You've got to give time to that. So I think ours was unique because of the existing relationship, unique as well, because we both had more than one campus with three physical campuses at the time. And the hub Church had got to so we will become in five physical campuses. And we've also launched online so we we count that as a campus as well, we shared many, I think, similar ideas, certainly set shared similar values, in terms of what we felt we were like, and also what we aspired to be. Some values are a commentary on what you are, and others are aspirational. But we Yeah, they were the same for us. So So that wasn't from and then the uniqueness was we did it in a pandemic.

David Mckeown 9:47

But you know, the benefit the law has,

Nathan Benger 9:49

Yeah, I was gonna ask the question.

David Mckeown 9:53

I think personally, it has helped with the churches in many ways, because like one of the things we've discovered Is the people were able to connect together easily online as a one Church model? Yeah. So they experienced that, you know, people, you know, in the different campuses, were able to experience what it was like to be involved with IKON Church Gentlemen, quite early on, I think if they were all physical campuses, and you weren't connecting, you know, you made a couple events a year or do something. But just to have that quickness of that. Church feel, I think it was a benefit. Excellent.

Nathan Benger 10:30

Yeah. And I think, I think that's important to recognise in the fact of what is the model?

Unknown Speaker 10:36

Yeah.

Nathan Benger 10:37

Is it a one Church? So you know, is it everyone? Or is it you know, that kind of like, yeah, we're gonna be connected, but you can kind of go and do your thing, in a sense. Yeah. And for us, it is that one Church model?

Paul Benger 10:51

Yeah, we went the whole, the whole hog. Really? You know, I mean, that's the way, the way that's the way we're doing multicampus isn't it that it's a one which one Church it's IKON Church, we want it to look smell, taste, feel like IKON Church wherever it is, it'll have its uniqueness, you know, in any different low locality. And that that could be a unique because of the size. The size is different, unique, because the gift mix is different of the people there. You know, and unique because of the buildings, I mean, we've got some physical buildings that are ours, there's, we've got others that we hire. So there'll be some different uniqueness. But in terms of the heart, the culture, the smell, the taste, the feel, even the coffee

David Mckeown 11:37

in the same coffee is important. And I think just picking up on that, Paul, I think it is to do with, you know, our our model, and I suppose the one we had with the hub was very similar in the sense of shared vision, shared values, shared culture. Yeah, but a little bit different on the grind. And each each place which you've got to align I other multi site churches may not go for that. But I think our model allies, a little bit of expression on the guide, definitely. But that they we say it's really important to have the same culture values vision. Yeah. Now, we know there is different models out there. But I think this is the one that's working for us.

Paul Benger 12:14

It is and I think and I think it's not, we don't see it as a limiting limiting thing. So I think we could start new campuses fed more campuses, but we could start them like we've never started campuses before. Yeah, particularly with the growth of digital and different things. And so we're not restricted to, you know, what we've done to start new campuses, or even to merge with other people and what they might, that might look like and how locally that might feel, it's it's the sense of in terms of how we organise ourselves and how we structure ourselves as a Church. And also, you know, like I've said, I keep saying this the look or feel the taste the smell, you know, on the ground.

Nathan Benger 13:02

So we mentioned some of the questions around merging, which are mentioned, what are churches be better together? Could we accomplish more than we could separately? Could we extend our reach together? Why was it important to ask those questions?

Paul Benger 13:16

Well, I think you've got to have a Why haven't you? I think, I think you lose energy in anything. Why? And I think the why question. I call it the so what question. So what we join two churches together, we, you know, close one charity, and we become one. So what, what's, what's the big Why? What's the big difference? And, and I think if you don't have that you lose motivation. And also, you've got to check your motive. So So for me, what was it? Because, like, you know, I wanted to lead a bigger organisation, or was it a genuine Kingdom thing? And I, you know, I'm thankful that for both of both of us, I believe it was a real Kingdom expression. And what we're doing today is a result of it. So one of the things that's come out of it, you know, I'm just, I'm just trying to work out six months in, we start talking about this idea which we'd had in previous conversations, well, come on, let's start working on what we've called IKON Open, which is all the resources that we can now develop together, that we can put in a place and then give them free of charge to any Church that once then, one of those resources is this podcast, the Church explained podcast, that's one but there's loads of other resources that we we just want anything we create, you know, if we're able, just to say if there's a Church that was there and a Church that needs how iritis Come on, get it, you can have it.

David Mckeown 14:50

Yeah, and I agree with that. I think coming back to those questions, I think if if you couldn't answer why to those, you know, if you couldn't answer like an iPhone, But of yes to those, you've got to ask your question. The other question is, what's the point generated? Because if you're not stronger together, yeah, they you know, if you can't reach more people, then why are you doing it? Like, I suppose, because there's different models of mergers, isn't there different ways that can happen to there is the common room for that. But I think they've got to be the start questions. Really, you have a Church watching today? And they're thinking, you know, maybe I'd like to merge with somebody else, or maybe somebody else in the room is asking them to merge with me. I think these are good questions to start with, you know, we'll worry about it again together. Because if the answer's no, then you're just going to cause yourself a lot of hair. Yeah, really aren't? Yeah, exactly. For the Church and the congregation, you got to think of the people, you got to think of all the process that you've got to go through. You know, it's a bit of a bit of a process, really. But if you've got the why then that's some motive for doing it. Yeah, we'd be better together? Well, the answer is going to be yes. If it's no, then I would say, stay away from it.

Paul Benger 16:04

A big thing for me as well was in terms of the leadership style that we have, will that leadership style help as if if we hit some road bumps or some difficulties along along the way? And how are we going to approach this this merger? And you know, so highly, our leadership style is very, I would say family oriented, in that sense that we see churches, family, big family, and so we're not we're not the hire and fire Church, you know, that just like, we don't like the look of you today, you're out of a job.

David Mckeown 16:43

Your hair's too long, your

Paul Benger 16:45

hair has been too long apart from mining, Calvin. But that's not my that's not our style of leadership. And people have commented on that. And so we were never going to approach this from a strict like almost a business, you know that that isn't work, shut it down. We were going to be more consultative. And we are to ask the question, Will that work? How can we make it work? And and we've worked together really well, I think, to make that happen. Yeah.

Nathan Benger 17:20

So you mentioned there those days that there are different types of mergers? Yeah, just highlight those. And then we'll get into like our, like, the five stages of like the merger? Sure. Yeah.

David Mckeown 17:31

I mean, this is taken from a clip called better together. And I would still recommend that anybody who's thinking of merging or being involved, not read that book, you'll find the stuff in there. But he talks about different types of mergers, the one is a marriage a call equals. But I think the big thing in any of these mergers, you've got to determine the relationship. When you when you're going to do a merge, you've got to think, well, who's going to be the lead? In this, then you've got what's called a rebirth. So of a churches struggling, maybe the need to be rebirth and you've got an adoption in. Yeah. And then you've got Of course, the ICU. It's often described as when teachers are struggling, they come together, and they think that that will solve the problem. I think it's there very rarely works out one domain when somebody

Paul Benger 18:23

wants describe that as putting two graves together and hoping for a resurrection.

David Mckeown 18:30

I think that's true. But but I think this, this ICU one is a rind a lot in some of the other denominations is via where they'll teachers will be struggling, they'll put them together and nothing. Okay, that's for something new, that much more hard work.

Paul Benger 18:45

And first, I'll get these denominations wrong. I know, one of them's the congregation or joke, but they've often merged with another denomination, to try and bring people together, you know, together and they're very rarely thrive. I think some are a mix as well. So I would I would look at ours in some ways, as a mix of some of the some of some of this, you know, in terms of, you know, the two coming together, predominantly, like as a marriage. But then obviously, much of what was existed as the hub now is IKON. So there's that adoption of that. But the idea, I guess, the heart was the two coming together and working together in that in that partnership.

David Mckeown 19:30

And you need you need at that point of the DTR. Determine the relationship. Yeah, because if you don't have that beginning, you begin dying that journey. Actually, it's hard to turn back, gentlemen. Yeah. So I think it's very one of the one of the key things we did early on which Okay, well, what is this? What is this? Yeah, and who's going to be there? You've got to ask the question, who's going to be the lead Church? Yeah. And there's nothing wrong. We ask not. That doesn't mean one is better than the other. It just means you've got to The question is, if you get to the point and two are trying to dance together, yes. To see who's going to be leading that, that's very problematic.

Nathan Benger 20:08

Yeah. So we've got five stages of merges written down. And I guess we've talked a lot about the exploration, which is I like how I've put it is like dating. Yeah. As you assess the possibility of merger, we kind of put a little timeframe there eight weeks, but this is really conversation with the senior leaders. So this would have been you to kind of sitting down talking.

Paul Benger 20:31

I mean, we've done we've done a lot of that for months, rarely. Yeah, I would say, but then it's a period where you bring other leaders in, you explore it, then in seriousness, so you've shared it with your leadership teams, and you start that discussion together. So

David Mckeown 20:48

yeah, cuz it's got to go from the point of the senior leaders talking about it, that needs to get to the next level, whatever your structure is, it's got to go to your directors, it's got to go to your whole leadership team. You know, that's the next level line isn't in the process. So you've got to have that that's your that's where you get to you're in a bush.

Nathan Benger 21:07

Because I think that's a really important just point to pick up on. Because I think if you don't get buy in from is this isn't it's not going to work, sudden water. So why would that be like one thing or something that we did that actually helps that process?

Paul Benger 21:24

Well, I think I think obviously, the fact that we've talked a lot together before, I think, you know, I'm less strict on the amount of time I think if the conversation because it's a relationship. If the conversations positive, you have the conversation for as long. So I you know, I remember we had a couple of zoom meetings or meetings when I was doing some work in Spain, with the leaders from the hub thing, we had a couple of meetings like that. And we had some meetings, you know, in the building, and we hadn't brought them leaders together for a day, as well. So So yeah, you just I think I think you've just got to get that, that buy in. I don't like that term. But you've got to get that heart that. You've got to get that. Amen. If you like in the in the resonate, resonate in the hearts of the leaders. That's a good word. Yeah.

Nathan Benger 22:17

I think I just remember back to because I was in that the, the exercise we did where we did strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. Yeah. And what it did for me was, I'm involved in this. Yeah. So it's not like, you just came and said, this is happening. We're doing this. Yeah. It was like, No, we want your input. Yeah. What are what are some strengths? You see? What are some weaknesses? What are some opportunities? What are some threats?

David Mckeown 22:45

and answer those questions openly? And honestly, I think that's the key really, isn't it? Because Because he's not used to those exercises? Yeah, if you're not going to do it properly. So I think that they're important to do. That's part of the process of doing any sort of merger or a partnership or connection in there.

Paul Benger 23:03

You need to have a clear process. And I think we have we had a very clear process we did where we were going, we kind of we kind of followed followed, followed this, these five stages. Yeah, or made sure that we were working well on these five stages. It's not just that you do one on it. The next one, you know, starts but we were working on. And I'd forgotten about that, actually, until you mentioned now, Miss Miss Mohammed, we did we had a whole day, you know, in Chesterfield, where we just, you know, got that flip job and said, well, let's talk about the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities and the threats of the merger, but obviously, of our two organisations. And so I thought that Yeah, that was a very good day. And a great point that other leaders are involved in that. Yeah,

Nathan Benger 23:49

yeah. And like you say, all these intertwine. So the second stage is negotiation. Yeah. I'm gonna let you you say what it is, because he's got some big words in it day.

David Mckeown 24:01

where it's like, Coach about determine the feasibility of the mergers. And so that's what it's about. Yeah. So you need to have that, which isn't about what we did really, on that day, we had a bit of an analysis, you know, working through some of those things are, you know, are we stronger together? Is there you know, feasibility in this? Or, or is it just our idea, because if they come up like that thing is, you know, we don't resonate as the if people don't resonate as reinders then all we're doing is coming up with an idea.

Paul Benger 24:34

Present, presenting the clarity. Yeah. So that so that further down the train, there's no surprises, you know, and and that, that at that point, any questions can in that negotiation, I guess, questions can arise that then as you carry on through the process, you can address

David Mckeown 24:55

and I suppose to keep that we were very open way and measure that was in our right at the beginning, right through that sense of openness of what we're doing. And we said that all all the leaders on both sides of you know, IKON on hub, like whatever questions you have, yeah, feel free to ask, you know, so it wasn't, I think mergers, copy real rules. You got marriage, you've got a journey with people, you got to take them with you. Yeah, you got to let them ask the good questions, and sometimes the awkward questions, and now the question will sometimes revolve around what is your motive? Yeah. You know, and it's good. You must be ready to be challenged with a question like, gentlemen,

Paul Benger 25:38

I think so.

David Mckeown 25:38

Yeah. So so that was important.

Nathan Benger 25:40

And being clear on those leads into the third one, which is the implementation. Yeah, like you making that public announcement?

Paul Benger 25:49

Yeah, so we set days for that we produced a little booklet that everybody across all our campuses could take away on that particular Sunday, when the announcement was made. And we set a bit of a timeline for about 10 weeks from the announcement, as to we were going to emerge on Easter Sunday will emerge daily, but because of the pandemic, but yeah, so that people then having done this negotiation with leaders, we set out the roadmap, which is a good way to the roadmap for the next 10 weeks of us coming together.

Nathan Benger 26:26

But as doing early, and I know, many of that was down to you know, kind of going online, and just like, yeah, let's just do this now. But actually having all of these done well, yeah, we could do that early. Yeah. And then it was, you know, an easier process. Yeah,

David Mckeown 26:45

definitely. And we kept on track without staff, weekly meetings. You know, me and Paul, were having conversations on a weekly basis, just to make sure. Are we on track with these, you know, you know, is moving forward? So I think you're right, Nathan, I think when we got to just doing it a few weeks early, most of the hard work was done by a isn't it? It was mean. So I think that was the benefit for it. We thought, well, what's the point of waiting for a few weeks?

Nathan Benger 27:12

Yeah,

David Mckeown 27:12

let's just do this now. Yeah.

Paul Benger 27:15

Yeah. And why try? We've got to go online. Yeah. Why try and do two things online? Korea for three weeks? Yeah, or whatever it was? Four weeks, but it was three weeks. Yeah. What So? So let's just do the merge of this. And let's tell everybody, you know, and so we communicated that well, and then that Sunday, first week online, I think it was 22nd of March or whatever. We're now IKON Church. Yeah,

David Mckeown 27:41

yeah. But it was no surprises for PBR. Because we had done the previous work. Yeah. And we, you know, had the booklets with, you know, with those conversations, and I think one of the big things to really point out is like, when you're doing something of this nature, you've got to have lots of conversations with lots of the right people. Yeah, yeah. I think that's an important thing of conversation with the right people who will then have conversations with the other radio.

Nathan Benger 28:07

Yeah, get like, what's coming out is communication is key. Big Yeah. open communication. honest communication allows lots of it. Almost over the top. Yeah, you gotta be Yeah, so the top of the can be like doing you know, like, even if do we need this me in now let's just meet anyway, because who knows what my come out. So the fourth area is consolidation. Like, we talked about a wedding wedding is a union occurs coming together, of Church name now is IKON Church, all of that, that consolidation. And then the fifth area is the integration where those two churches begin the hard work of learning how to be one Church. Yeah, and do that. And we found in the pandemic, because we went online, we found that actually, that has helped us yeah, to be one Church and to be able to communicate that better

Paul Benger 29:08

Yeah, definitely. Well, first of all with Sunday's were because, you know, people from, you know, what was the hope Church will say, to me, the great thing of doing this online is we got to know there's loads of people from IKON Church, because suddenly we see people that they may never have seen, you know, at that, so suddenly, they feel part of that. And also, we used people from the hub Church, we've we've done that as well, you know, in in the online platforms, but it hasn't just been the Sundays, the creative teams have integrated, you know, across the campuses. And so they have now and even I walked into the building last Sunday night for the service and there was one of the guys from rather and then, you know, helping out as well and learning some of the stuff some of the technical stuff up point and then I know tomorrow. I know nobody knows when tomorrow is because it's

Nathan Benger 30:05

podcast. But

Paul Benger 30:07

tomorrow, we're doing some stuff with Stocksbridge, you know, bispecific land. So that integration has happened all the way Connect groups, suddenly all the Connect groups were aligned with Connect, knows and answer. So yeah, the integration has happened for us really, really well, integrating staff and that and that has included a shift of roles for some people as well. So obviously, there's all of that. But again, communication, talk about it, work it through. Yeah.

Nathan Benger 30:37

So Dave, what steps could elita take now, if they're thinking about a merger?

David Mckeown 30:42

I think go back to the first three questions. You know, the thing about a merger, you know, you know, is there is there a benefit to it? Or what's, what's the why for doing it? And I think start with those things. Of course, one of the things they could do, contact us.

Paul Benger 30:56

Yeah. I think they've got to talk to you know, I think I would have to say, you know, and this is the you were x, you were very good and very clear in this whole process. You know, I mean, I, I'm good with detail, but I was more conceptual. And, you know, I it's Paul, is Paul and Dave will work it out. You know, but it's not just Paul and Dave. Yeah, it's two organisations, it's two charities is two leadership teams. And Dave was very good at that. So I would say, have a chat with Dave.

David Mckeown 31:29

Yeah. So but I think that's a good thing. And people are thinking, you know, we want to merge, you know, have a conversation with somebody who's done it. Yeah. Not just pick up a book.

Nathan Benger 31:38

Right. Great. Well, that's it for this episode of the Church explained podcast. And it's been great to talk around Church mergers. And I know we're just kind of like touching the surface. So I know there'll be future episodes on Church mergers. Want to thank you for listening. And remember to subscribe, rate review, leave us a comment, throw in some questions, wherever you're consuming this content, do whatever is needed to get this out. And maybe you even know, some people are exploring Church mergers and this conversation would help them Can I encourage you to share it with them and send it on and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Church explained podcast.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai