CEP 04: STEVE MAWSTON - DOES A SENIOR PASTOR NEED A COACH?

Apr 28

By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger

In this episode, we chat with Ps Steve Mawston from Soul Church on why a senior leader needs a coach. Steve spent 14 life-changing years with his wife at Hillsong Church before returning to the UK in 2018 with a passion to see churches in the UK grow exponentially.

Steve, shares why you need a coach, how to get a coach and how having a coach can help with your leadership and church growth.

Welcome to Episode: 04 of the Church Explained Podcast. A conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. We will talk about all things leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests during each show.

Listen and access the full show notes below or search for The Church Explained Podcast on Apple Podcast or where you get your podcasts and listen for free.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

David Mckeown 0:00

Welcome to the Church explained podcast we appreciate you joining us the Church explained podcast is a conversation to develop your leadership and grow your Church. Our goal in this podcast is to share inspirational insights and ideas, resource leaders, churches, and teams, through conversations with key team players at IKON Church, and other invited guests. Today, we're going to explore the idea of does a senior Pastor need a coach? My name is Dave. My name is Nathan, where the host of this podcast. Yes, we are. And we're so pleased today. We've got Steve Mawston on with us. Welcome, Steve.

Steve Mawston 0:38

Thank you. It's an honour to be here. Dave.

David Mckeown 0:40

Wonderful, we're just gonna find out a little bit about you, Nathan's gonna share some info about you.

Nathan Benger 0:45

I've found some info about you, Steve. Where did you find it from? Well who knows, you're one of the pastors at Soul Church. That's right. A multisite Church based in Norwich in the UK, led by the great, I'll have to say it if you're listening, John and Chantel Norman, and you and your wife Rachel actually spent 14. And it says on your website, because I went on your website Steve for this life defining years as part of the team in Hillsong, Australia. And then in 2018, you returned to the UK with a passion to see Church grow in the UK and Europe? Absolutely. Is that all correct. That is all factually correct and great.

David Mckeown 1:24

Hey, so thanks for being with us today. Steve, we just want to share and think around this idea of coaching. And whether it's important why why should a senior Pastor have a coach? And should they have what what's your thoughts on that? Obviously, you're involved in coaching. So what do you think on that?

Steve Mawston 1:42

Look, I think I think that the role of senior Pastor is an incredibly demanding role. They've got multiple demands on them and giving out a lot. So anything that helps any individual and grows them and takes them forward, hopefully, is a really positive thing. So I think senior pastors come in, in lots of different levels of maturity levels of experience, or specifically the the guys that are new to becoming a senior Pastor, I think it's essential, especially if they're from an independent Church that is someone with a bit of wisdom and maturity that speaking into their life, listening, encouraging. And even then through to quite experienced senior pastors. And the role is very different with them. It's more about being a sounding board and bouncing ideas off them. So I think there are there are lots of benefits according to the maturity level of the senior Pastor.

Nathan Benger 2:33

Yeah. Is, like, is coaching kind of new language that we've kind of brought about. And is there a difference between like, you know, like coaching, mentoring, counselling, those kind of things? Is that is that new in Church today?

Steve Mawston 2:48

Look, I think if you look at the definition of a coach and where the word comes from, I only learned this few weeks ago, but it actually goes back to the idea of a stage coach, John Maxwell teaching this. So what was the purpose of a stage culture was to get you from one position to another. And so I thought that was a that really clicked with me, that's what we're trying to do is to move people forward, take take them on a journey. You don't find coach in the Bible, but I think, you know, coaching and mentoring and counselling and helping, they're all on on a similar spectrum, but with different emphasis and focus.

Nathan Benger 3:24

Now, that's great, thanks. Who have you. Who is some people you've coached in the last two years? I know we've chatted even you've also been coached as well. Yeah, totally.

Steve Mawston 3:35

Yeah. Well, firstly, in terms of who I've coached, one of the things I love is coaching young leaders. So I coach a number of very young leaders, so aged, kind of 16 17 18. And I absolutely love that. And I just do that, because I'm passionate, I believe I want to invest in them through to coaching, quite experienced senior pastors of big churches. So there's a whole spectrum there, in terms of who I've been coached, by I've got lots of different coaches. I need a golf coach, for sure. But actually, you know, it's a good example, recently, I've been wrestling with the book of Revelation. Because there's been a lot of conspiracy theories so thought I really got to understand this for myself. So I know Nathan Finnochio you know him and he put me in touch with a guy called David Campbell, who's written several commentaries on revelation. So I got in contact with him, and he's helping me take me on a journey of understanding that so I think in lots of areas of ministry, recently, I reached out to Simon Thomas, he's part of our Church. He's an incredible presenter, especially in formats like this. I send him one of my messages said, Give me some feedback. Help me grow me because I think in every area of your life, we can all grow and develop. So I've got lots of coaches

Nathan Benger 4:48

Do you think I'm just picking up on the idea of like you talking about multiple coaches in different areas, do you think that's a key as well to look at not just to have the one coach Like, like what we might life coach? Yeah. But to have like, you've got specific areas, I can look for a coach in that area.

David Mckeown 5:07

Absolutely. So another area that I've got a coach in is in the area of finances. So it was an area in the first 40 years of my life, I didn't do great. And when I hit 40, I realised I haven't done great, I need some help. So one of the guys that coaching is actually my brother. And he's amazing, because he's been doing stuff in the world of finance for 20 30 years. So, you know, on the way home from today, I'll call him and we'll chat about and glean from his wisdom. So I think having coaches in lots of areas of life is is really valuable. And I think that's the difference between coaching and mentoring. Mentoring the root word was when I think it was a Odysseus went off on his epic, and he left his son with mentor. So mentor was the guy that was like, almost like the nanny that would grow and develop him as you mature in life. And I think the mentor looks after the whole person, whereas the coach can give specific skills like a golf coach, or whatever.

David Mckeown 6:03

Yeah, you keep going back to that golf coach. I need it badly. Yes, I think on that idea of coaching and mentoring, the counselling, I think there is a wee bit of a distinction a little they all overlap a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But I think for maybe leaders who are listening in today, or watching wherever they're watching from, they're probably because those terms have been banded around a bit. Having a coach a mentor, a counsellor, I would say possibly a coache is always looking forward future focused is what a coach trying to do get alongside you. Taking somewhere where mentors, he said is like nannying, you know, somebody who's above and more experienced? Yeah, they're imputting. And I suppose counsellors always looking forward, but they're looking back as well. Yeah, and theres space for all of that, I suppose. But I was thinking, this idea of a coach, you know, senior pastors do need a coach, or maybe one of the reasons they needed is because of the blind spots. No, sometimes the senior leaders involved in life, and they can't see those blind spots and a coach has a great way, then they get in and they help them see that. What's your experience on that. Have you been able to coach some people not did you have to share everyone's deepest darkest secrets, but you know, some of the blind spots, that maybe people face?

Steve Mawston 7:16

Yeah, that's, that's really good. I mean, one of the ways I got involved first got involved with this church is that I was really impressed that senior Pastor, Paul had the courage to invite us to come in to the Church without anybody else knowing and experience the Church, and then give him and some of the team feedback. You were mystery shoppers, I was a mystery shopper. So literally, I sat in the back was actually quite blown away by the quality of the young leaders packed in the front row. So but within that feedback, there was probably a couple of areas that when you're in it, you don't see it. But someone comes from outside and they say, Well, have you thought about this? So I think that's the type of thing that a good coach can do can exactly as you say, a highlight some of the blind spots, bring it to the surface and start a good conversation. Yeah. That's great, stuff. So go ahead.

Nathan Benger 8:06

Yeah, I was just, I was just going to kind of expand on that. And just thinking like, when we're asking the question, Why does a senior leader or senior Pastor need a coach? Are there other areas that you see, you know, when you're in something, you kind of just get in it and focused are there other other areas that you see, through your experience of coaching that actually, when you're in it, you can you can tend to miss things? And that's why you need a coach.

Steve Mawston 8:32

Yeah, one of the things that I think a lot of leaders can be is quite reactive and responsive to feedback. And I think one of the marks of maturity is opening up and getting good, honest feedback. I know you guys do this brilliantly with your 360 feedback. One of the things we did in our senior leadership team just over the last two weeks, again, john Norman asked us all to talk to three people that serve alongside us and give us three points of feedback. And that was really valuable to get three lots of feedback saying you did this well. But you don't do this too great. And you should grow in this. And I, you know, it brought some things about me to the surface that I can now address. And that's where coaching comes in. Is you can actually look at that and say, Well, did this feed? Is it objective? Does it say more about the person or then you can have a really good conversation and agree a way forward? coaching isn't giving you the answers, coaching is asking the right questions, so you can choose what to do about it. Yeah, that's really good.

David Mckeown 9:32

I think that's that's great. It's about asking those questions, because sometimes as you say, you know, senior leader could be in there, but they just can't see that question or maybe they're thinking of it from a different point of view. Someone comes in says, Have you thought about like this and suddenly it unlocks something doesn't for you? Absolutely. In that situation? Yeah. So just thinking, you know, you were saying that the fact that you know, sometimes a coach can come in ask the right questions. What what are some of the best questions you've found that you've been able to ask?

Steve Mawston 10:04

questions I've been able to ask? Well, I think the quality of leader is often shown by the quality of the questions that they ask. And I can tell if, if I'm in a room with young leaders, they can either pull the best out of me by asking the right questions, I can be quite boring for everyone. I learned the power of questions when I first went to Hillsong. Must be 20 years ago now. And I was just blown away by this Church, I've thought, How can I learn really quickly. And so I literally nearly wrote to Pastor Brian but I thought, he's probably not gonna have the time, but I thought who will be the next best person. And there's a guy there called Kevin Brett, who used to be Pastor Brians senior Pastor in New Zealand. And his job on staff was to coach the staff. So I thought, that's a guy I would love to talk to. So nobody knows me in Hillsong Australia. So I just rock up to him said, I'm Steve. I'm new. And I'm just hungry and passionate to learn. And I said, Can I take you out for lunch? Once a month? For the rest of the year? to the restaurant of your choice? And you eat whatever you want? I'll pay the bill. But can I ask you questions for 45 minutes. And he looked at me as if I was from another planet. He said, Look, here's my email. I'll get back to you by the end of the week. That's because he knew what restaurants, but we did. He said yes to it incredibly, so in I reckon, in in those 10 sessions, and it cost me about what 50 60 bucks. But what a great investment. I recognised, fast tracked and learn about so many aspects of Hillsong Church in that first few months. And I ended up on staff probably because I was asking the right questions. I was keen to learn, you know, when you go into a session with a coach, don't talk to the coach about all the things, you know, you know, don't do all the talking do a lot of listening as well. Alright, so I think yes, it's questions, but it's it's also about listening to people that are further down the track you.

Steve Mawston 11:58

And I love that, that thought that brings out because someone might be listening to this going, can I really invest in this? Is it worth the investment in a sense, and you've taken Hey, I want to get into this 10. And it's this willingness that I'm going to invest absolutely to this. And I think that's, that's the key. And sometimes we even, you know, I just listened to a few things. Sometimes the people that we want to be coached by seem to be the busiest people. And we think they won't have the time. Yeah. But actually, they're the people we need to be coached by. And so it's that moment of No, I'm going to invest, I'm even going to ask the question, I'm going to send the email, you're gonna do that. I think that can be a starting point for a senior leader to go do you know what. They may look busy, but that's the person I do want to be coached by.

Steve Mawston 12:48

Absolutely. And I think sometimes it's a lack of confidence, especially as Brits. We don't actually cross that line and ask, I went to conference, European learning communities conference last year or two years ago, there was a speaker there that he really got my attention. His name was Brett dalfour. He's a Canadian leadership coach. And his session was brilliant. He said some stuff. So afterwards, I emailed him and said, I would look would you coach me? straightaway said yes. Because I was passionate, and I wanted to learn and grow. So who were the people? You know, you guys listening? Who the people you'd love to be coached by? Why don't you contact them? Show them that you're passionate? You never know. You know, I remember the first time I met Phil Dooley. I thought, this guy's so inspiring. I just want to get to know him. And I found out he's flying to Melbourne to do a youth live event. So I asked him so Phil, can I go with you? I'll carry your bags. I'll just say he always travels with someone. Yeah, come on, in. And at my own expense, I flew to Melbourne and back. The only time I've ever been and by the way, I was in Australia at the time. I know he's good. But I don't think I'd pay to fly from England to Melbourne with Phil Dooley if you're listening. But it was it was worth 100 pounds to spend a day listening to it to a key leader.

David Mckeown 13:59

So we're just picking up a couple of things. You said there, Steve, this idea of sometimes the leader can feel almost like reactive, or I suppose insecure. That's a big thing for a leader because if someone's leading something, they've got other people following them as such, you know, how do we get leaders to move from that place of reaction and insecurity to the fact that they do need a leader because they do need a coach. That's one of the things we're really preaching today is the fact that a senior leader or not just a senior leader, but acts like any sort of passer or, you know, need someone to come alongside with them. What would you suggest? Ho do People get over that, you know, I mean,

Steve Mawston 14:41

look, I don't know whether you ever get over it completely. I think it's about learning to identify that we can all be a bit reactive. We're all we've all got our insecurities. We all push back, especially if you spent years built building a team building a Church and then someone criticises it. Yeah, that is a natural response. I think it does take maturity, I think the key thing is providing a safe place where people can trust you enough to actually have those conversations, overcome the emotional response and get into a logical conversation where you can look at what happened, why it happened. And then you can start to learn and grow up and grow from it. So I think it's providing that safe place. I think confidentiality is a massive thing. You got to find someone you absolutely trust, if you're going to go there and share the things that are really on your heart. But if if there's anyone listening to this, and you're thinking, I probably need a coach, I would really encourage you to reach out to them. It can grow, it can grow, you grow your thinking, provide a safe place, give you encouragement, get you focused on the right issues, the big issues, and not just the things that eat you up, that can be to do with your insecurities.That's brilliant. Very, very, really good.

Nathan Benger 15:52

You've talked about like, a little bit, like you've been coached by people, but how did you identify those people?

Steve Mawston 15:58

I think it's about regularly knowing yourself, and knowing the areas that you need to grow in. So for example, two weeks ago, I preached it. So at the end, my voice went. And so I was gonna lead everyone in the Lord's Prayer, and I couldn't so I had to get john up to do it. And I thought, you know what, I need a vocal coach. I need someone to teach me a particular skill of how to breathe from my diaphragm and not from here. Robert Ferguson talks about as a preacher how he lost his damaged his vocal cords. And so that made me think you know, what, I need a coach to actually teach me how to breathe. So if you're a vocal coach, listening to this, get in contact with me, but that's the idea. It's where are the areas of my life that I want to progress and move forward? And I think we do it much better and much quicker if we've got someone else helping us through that journey.

David Mckeown 16:49

Yeah, definitely. And I suppose not to be afraid of just picking up the phone, put an email out there. Contacting someone. Because sometimes people think, well, Nathan says whos gonna listen to me? You know, who am I? Yeah, I think it's just having a boldness to get out there, chat with somebody and make that conversation begin to happen isn't really, absolutely. So. So just bring it in. It's been brilliant just to chat with you for you know, in this podcast, just around coaching. You've shared some brilliant things with us today. What any other sort of Final thoughts before we wrap up today on coaching how, for example? Like, if if someone's listening to us today and watching, you know, what are the next steps you would say they need to take?

Steve Mawston 17:33

Like, I think one of the big things is we're working out how important is this to you? So for years, I wanted to grow as a preacher, but the only feedback I ever got was, oh, you're great. You're fantastic. And then I sent one of my messages to Robert Ferguson. And he absolutely slaughtered my preach. Yeah. And we sat down together, he told me two positive things and 12 things I needed to work on. And I learned more in 30 minutes, than 30 years, literally. So from that moment on, I realised the importance of coaching someone that's way further down the track, and just helping you putting you in the stage coach and saying, hey, you're here, here's how we get you to here. So one of the things he said to me was, how many books have you read on preaching? I said, six, he said, You need to read 99. And he just blew my mind. And so I've probably since that conversation, you know, I'm a good preacher. I'm not a great preacher. But I've grown a lot quicker. from listening, learning to that one coaching session, how many books you read, now? probably read about 50. So you're ticking them off? No, but your dad did send me one. And it was 650 pages. So I reckon that was worth about five that was worth about. In fact, again, here's a way he knew I loved preaching so he gave this to me. I read these articles in there, about 25 articles, there was one by Jeff Lucas thought that's brilliant. This is a guy that doesn't is not just a great preacher. He's a great thinker about preaching. So I emailed him and said, Would you listen to one of my messages and give me some feedback? And it's just this cycle of ongoing growth?

David Mckeown 19:17

So let me just draw this out a little bit, just before we wrap up, because let's say you send an email out to somebody, but actually, let's say the email comes back. And this Well, let's say, first of all, they say no, I'm too busy. Yeah. Because that can happen couldn't it like absolutely you've shared emails that you've sent out. Someone's got you've got that email back and said, Yeah, we're happy to help. Is there ever a time where you send an email out, and you haven't got that back?

Steve Mawston 19:43

Yeah, I haven't heard back from Jeff. But anyway, if you're listening to me, Jeff, check your emails, it might be that it's not the right email, but Well, listen, I think it's, I think it's about the way you ask. Yeah. So when it was Kevin Brett, you know I was one of 500 students, why should he? Yeah, I tried to think from the perspective of how can I make this a win for him? When it's a win for them, so me investing in taking him out for dinner or making sure that, hey, I'm going to be as passionate about this as I can. So he's not just wasting his time. You know, it's about the way that you ask sometimes. And if someone doesn't get back to you, what have you lost? That's a it's like,

David Mckeown 20:23

I think that's what I was trying to draw. Because people can sit and think, Well, you know, I can't send an email because getting rejected or feel even worse. But I think it's just putting it out there. Yeah. So listen final question, and then we're gonna wrap up is, when someone choosing a coach, do you think it needs to be somebody they know?

Steve Mawston 20:42

No, because I've asked loads of people to coach me, Brett dolphin didn't know me from Adam. He lives on the other side of the world. But he coached me, Jeff Lucas doesn't know me. But he's got a set of skills and the gifting anointing and ability that I thought, well, I would love to learn from that guy. So you don't need to know them. But maybe trust them, at least in their skill set. What absolutely, that's a key. No. Well, I think that is that is critical. Yeah, I agree with that.

Nathan Benger 21:07

Great. Well, that's it for this episode. It's been so good share around coaching and big Thank you, Steve, for being part of this Church explained podcast. This episode. Just want to say thanks for listening, everyone. And remember, wherever you're consuming this content to like it, share it, subscribe, send it on to someone you think would be, you know, would really benefit from what we've talked about today. And don't forget, there are free resources on our IKON Open website, you can check those out ikon.church/open. And if you have any questions for us, then feel free to drop us an email, drop them in the comments on YouTube, whatever it is, get in contact with us because we'd love to find out what you want us to talk about. But also we'd love to help you in building your leadership and growing your Church. It's been so good to be together and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Church explained podcast.

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