CEP SEASON THREE EP: 04 - PAUL BENGER

Feb 2

By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger

The Church Explained podcast is a conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your Church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. During each show, we discuss leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests.

Welcome to Season 3, Episode: 04 of the Church Explained Podcast with guest Paul Benger.

We are glad you have joined us to experience something brand new for this season. Over the next while, we will include some behind-the-scenes (BTS) staff talks from Ikon Church.

These include vital ideas we are working on and thinking about as a church at the moment. In this episode, Paul shares why we need to have a 'who is next’ culture and what happens when we don't have one.

We hope you enjoy it.

SHOW NOTES

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

CREATED BY AI - SO NOT 100% accurate.

David Mckeown 0:00

Welcome to the church explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. Today we've got something brand new for all our listeners, we're going to have a behind the scenes staff talk from our Lead Pastor Paul bandarq. Right here in IKON Church, this is something we're going to be doing over the next season, just to bring you something different and fresh. And you're going to hear the staff talk, but also some of the staff discussions that are going to take place. And so we hope you enjoy it. This is the first one we've done like this, give us your feedback. And let us know what you think.

Paul Benger 0:42

This, this staff meeting were, as we've just said, recording as well for IKON Open and podcast. And I thought I'd share this morning just around the idea of something that we talk about a lot, I think in IKON Church, and we keep at the forefront of that idea of who's next. And it's important to us and how just, even in our conversation this morning, and over the last few days, it just came home to me that we actually do have it as part of our culture. So as Ben said, on Monday night, I was at the youth leaders meeting and, you know, 20 youth leaders were there, I think, on a Monday night, and it was great, we got to pray, some of them want to prayer and things at the end, we talked a little bit about, you know, just being filled with the Holy Spirit. And so we got to pray for some. And then at the end, I said to Ben, is great, great group, we were just talking about the group. And then we had the conversation of who's next. And Ben gave me straightaway, a couple of names people he's thinking of, and that this year will definitely come through, potentially into that group. And then yesterday, Gavin mentioned same as he mentioned, this morning, you know, five new couples coming to connect training, you know, with a view that we'll be able to launch some new Kinect groups throughout the year and when they're ready, ready. So a couple of verses that actually speak into this for me is Matthew 935, to 38. And then the very next verse with Jesus, Matthew, chapter 10, verse one, it's an unfortunate chapter break, really. And Matthew 935 to 38 says this, Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues on pray, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, curing every disease and every sickness. When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, The harvest is plentiful. But the labourers are few. And I guess this is the phrase for us, isn't it? The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few. Therefore, ask the Lord of the harvest, to send forth labourers into the harvest field. And then the very next verse, it says, do so Jesus called 12 disciples. So now we now we, if you like examples, because 12 disciples, gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness. And that was chapter nine verses, he says, The harvest plentiful. And this is our continual prayer, send labourers therefore, into the harvest. But then in chapter 10, he models that by giving them authority and sending them out. You know, it's so important, we keep asking this question, because the harvest is there. That's what Jesus is saying, there is a harvest there, there are people who need the gospel, there are churches to be planted, there are ministries to be done, the harvest is there. And so this has to be a continual prayer, and also our continual action, to send people in into the harvest on mission. And, you know, I just thought, just because that word came up mission, our mission as a Church is to build relevant contemporary churches, reaching people with a message of Jesus empowering them to lead an influence in every sphere of life, and impact the world. And to do that, we need a whole host of people to actually reap that harvest of building churches. I think it has become part of our culture, and I want to encourage it to remain as part of our culture and even become stronger within our culture. You know, we often tell the story when Nathan and myself were both working for ground level and Nathan, I think it was working a couple of days a week and we would travel to Lincoln on the season to work and very often in the car, we wouldn't say much but we'd Very often have the conversation about youth that was youth go in when he was leading youth and who's next? Who's Who's next from youth? Because obviously, I would see them on a Sunday and see what was happening and was thrilled. But I'd often be having that question, who's next? And I think this is something that we're all involved in. It's not just youth ministry, and are thrilled that we're talking about it in Connect ministry. It's we're all involved in it. It's this sense of reproduction. This didn't go and make disciples of all nations, and if it goes through all generations, doesn't it. And I told the story on Monday night hygiene, and I went for a few days to Northumberland, and we went into Hexam cathedral, I think, at least it is a cathedral, but I saw a little plaque. And this plaque said, there's been worship on this site for 1100 years, you know, and I was thinking, you know, without the making of disciples without somebody being next, that just doesn't happen, does it? It just, it just doesn't continue. And so I love that. But this call of who's next is not just for the continuance of the Church throughout generations, because it because that could be seen as maintenance. But this is a call to grow. There isn't an expansion, Isaiah chapter nine, and verse seven talks about Jesus, and it says, Of the increase of His government and peace, there'll be no end. We believe the kingdom is coming. But we believe it's here. Now the rule of Jesus. And this isn't just about asking, who's next isn't just about how do we keep youth ministry going? How do we keep the lights on? How do we keep the heating on how do we turn the heating up is a little bit cold, for any that are listening today. But actually, this is about growth and expansion, and see the kingdom of God going forward. So a couple of examples or ideas. I read a book called above the line by an American football, college football coach called Urban Meyer. And somebody who has been super successful, maybe the most successful at that level, interestingly, is then gone on to coach NFL teams and been terrible. But college football left vo super successful. And he talks in this book about the 10 810 principle. And it is the the first 10 is the first 10% of people. And I think this is true, even in the life of churches and organisations, these are the gold, the people who give you all they've got all the time. And that, you know, you're just in most groups, you've got that 10% of people who are like that fully and fully committed, then you've got the 8% of people and they do a good job. And they're, they're committed to a level. But they're not. They're not as committed as the top 10. They're not as in, you know, then they're not as fully involved as the top 10. And, but they're there and they're solid, and then you've got the last 10 and then really disinterested, they're around. But they're not that interested. They've got other interested, they're uncaring, he calls them coach killers, kind of in his book. And he said this, the challenge is to move as many of the eight percenters into the top tier. If that can become 15 to 20%, then the performance increase will be substantial. And he tells how he tells the story in the book, how he was able to move the top tier at one particular college, above 10% To 15 to 20%. And that was why that team became super successful for many years. And I think, you know, even some of the stories were telling in staff meeting this morning about people as a result of Academy getting more involved. That's that's, that's an example of that, isn't it that shifting, we're good person, very good person, good family in maybe that block of 8%. Now tipping into what you would call that increased level of commitment and and adding great value. I think another example of this is the Pareto principle or the Pareto distribution, which is the 8020 rule. And where Pareto said 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people 80% of their income often comes from 20% of the people in a society in you know in an organisation that cetera. I like to say 8% of the food at a buffet is eaten by by 20% of the guests.

Paul Benger 9:59

Is it Is that principle but again, the Pareto Principle says that's the, that's the normal, but the more we can push into that 20%, the better. I think this is important as well, because who's next, I think gets challenged, doesn't it? If I talk to lots of pastors, they're struggling to think of who might be next in some areas of ministry, that they're struggling to share weight. I was talking yesterday even to some pastors and, and they were just saying everything has been reliant upon them. And they're just beginning to be able to bring together a little team where they can begin to share weight. And I was praying with them, because that team was meeting for the first time this week. And last Thursday, I, before the pandemic before 2020, I every three or four months, I used to have a day and I just blocked the day out, call it a Jesus day. And basically all I do on that day as I sit. And I just go through my notebooks, like for the previous three or four months, just about the notes I've been taking, and the things I've been praying and just just read it well, I've not really done that for two years, because of the pandemic, my rhythm had gone out. And I put it in my diary. And Lucy asked, asked me, Why have you got Jesus in your diary? Is first time she'd seen it. And so I explained, that's what I do. But I was going through, and obviously I was gonna, so I went right back to the last time. And so I found this notebook in 2019, where I had four couples on my, that I was praying for on like, who's next list in 2019. And only one of those couples have made it and one have moved away. One went to a Church more local, so they're still they're still, you know, serving God. But in terms of what we were believing for, one moved away, one went to Church more local one got sick, they're still in this area, but can't attend because they're sick. And then one is fully committed, fully serving in the life of our Church. So just 25% and it just reminded me that actually this gets challenged that even people you identify a new look to, there can be challenges, and I'm sure you've all experienced that. It's important because the culture when who's next is missing. isn't healthy, when who's next is missing. I put down some examples. It's hard to get into the circle. When who's next is missing, the circle is closed and it Church it everything's just the the club the clique isn't it is hard to get in. And we talk about widening the circle a lot, don't we? You see the same faces all the time, the same people doing the same things. People protect their space, when the who's next isn't celebrated. And we want people to enjoy the space that God gives them. But we don't want to protect our space. We want to have that sense of celebration that others can stand up and rise up. Envy becomes strong. We all feel envy. we all we all have ashamed with youth leaders, you will at times feel why did that person get chosen to do this? Or why did this person we all feel envy, but envy can become so strong, that it stops us. We hang out with the same people after every service. You know, we're just like when there's no connection beyond our immediate group. There's no prayer about it. Jesus said pray to the Lord of the harvest, that he'll send forth labourers. And sometimes, you know when again, when we talk to churches and people, pastors or leaders are struggling with Well, we haven't got anybody who's next. The first place to start is put some prayer into it. And so the question isn't asked with passion. There's no focus on development. There's no plan for bringing people through. And I'm so glad in so many areas in the life of our Church, there is a plan and there is thought about how we bring through ministries don't have any evangelistic spirit. They don't they're not on ramps. For people. It's just as it's what we like it keeps us happy we enjoy it. But so many of our ministries could be evangelistic on ramps, you know, I was thinking about how imagine has been there So many people bring in friends to imagine for the first time, it's been that kid's ministry, Guru ministry here has been a huge on ramp. In the life of our Church, youth ministry has been that, too. But even production has been a little bit of an honour. I remember Ben Oh in. And the story of Ben Oh, Ian and his brother come in. And then his family started to come to our Church some years ago, and his dad saying to me, I've got this other son, he's just, he's just like, into computers and screens. And so I said, Well, I'll tell him to come and help and play with all this stuff. And he came, he actually I said, tell him to come next Sunday. But he actually came on the Friday and made it made a decision, it can be an on ramp. And there's no invest in and no inviting when it's missing. So just bringing this to kind of a point how, how do we keep this spirit strong? And how do we develop it? Well, I think it starts with relationship, that the foundation is relationship, we widen the circle, we start new conversations, we create new opportunities. So it's just relationship we just be just begin to have some new conversations, new opportunities. We think about the ice new conversation when we've seen somebody and the you know, I guess, Gavin, that's what Gavin has done with these five couples that are, you know, new to that connect training. I see in you. We don't just share bread and wine, but we share bread and fish of bread and ribeye steak or something, we you know, we invite them into something that is first you know, that historians tell us the disciples had two meals, bread and wine, bread and fish. And you see Jesus with that, don't you? Before he dies, the Last Supper. After the resurrection, he's cooking fish for breakfast, bread and fish, which is more of a relational meal. And I think we pray, we pray into those relationships, we pray into those people. So the first thing is relationship. The second thing is, is the whole area of training. And we've talked about this, I guess, in more detail, so are just training and coaching, I guess, you know, the whole idea of of training people, I do you help we talk you do I help we talk, you do I watch, we talk and you do someone else watches and we talk and they're just that whole idea of training people and, and feedback. Some of you are very, very good at that. I think in terms of what you do, just, you know, we do a little just a little review of a Sunday. And there were a couple of things that I wanted to mention to Nathan and he'd already had the conversations about those. So which which was, which was great. And then when it comes to coaching, and of course, you know, asking questions, of people who are serving what's good? What's such, what's challenging? Is there any way I can help? What can I pray for? Just being alongside someone and helping them supporting them? coaching them, not? Not giving them the all the answers, but just helping them come to a place where they have the answers? So relationship training, coaching, I think discipling as well, looking out for the killer attitudes that can stop, stop people, you know, things like envy. As part of our discipleship process, to, to work with people on those things, look out for levels of passion, when we see passion waning, and things things dip in, in the lives of people asking the question Is everything alright? With people caring for them? In that way.

Paul Benger 19:26

I love the phrase that we're starting to use around small groups that, you know, we want Church to be a place where people cannot hide and people cannot go missing. So just that sense of care, and that's part of discipleship, actually that relationship and, and having those conversations. So as I close, what could be the takeaway from today? Well, if you haven't already, start a list or have a look at your list and begin to pray for those. Pray for those people. Go away and pray us As period we're in of prayer and fasting, and ask the question, who's next? And look, look towards the plan, where you can say, like Jesus, we've now sent them, we've given them that opportunity, we've launched them into something they've not done before. So who's next? Let's keep it strong. I think it is in our culture as a Church. But let's keep it strong, and make it stronger.

Nathan Benger 20:31

But yeah, so just on the back of pause to what we do in our staff meetings, and you'll see this as we have a discussion, people can ask questions, all of that. And so we're going to do that. Now for you to listen in on. So yeah, so anyone wants to kick us off? Otherwise, I'll kick us off.

Unknown Speaker 20:55

Ben, right. Next year, I loved hearing the phrase widen the circle, again, and you were talking about things like what what happens when we don't have that culture of who's next. And one of those things being that we hang out with the same people. And I think the older I get, the more I realise that's the temptation, you get used to your group of friends. And it made me just think that it's a very kind of countercultural idea of widening our circle. And the older you get still having that intention to build new relationships with people. I was actually thinking about the Friends series, actually, which I'm not, not a huge fan, but I've seen all of it. And that six group of people, and it's an incredibly inclusive, club life, if you think about the whole thing, it's very hard for people to get into that that group of friends. Yeah, I guess the Church and having that culture of who's next is the opposite to that. It's not not being an inclusive clubs. I thought that was really good.

David Mckeown 21:58

Yeah, Paul, I was thinking of the 8020 rule that you mentioned, are some leaders or some churches would say, it's not possible to break the 8020 rule, the Pareto Principle, what's your thoughts on that?

Paul Benger 22:11

Yeah, I mean, I thought about that, when I put it in my notes, the 8020, that some say that's, that's the natural cause of things. I think the point I was making with using the 10 810 illustration, is that sometimes it's worse than that. And actually, if you can shift it to 20, you've got an opportunity to do because that will impact that will have impact on the whole group, if you can have, you know, I mean, if you think of, you know, 1000 people and 200, really Redheart, they're going to that's, that's sizable enough to drive anything, you know, if you know, if it's 100 people, 20 people that's size sizable enough that 20% is sizable enough to set the whole culture. So whether you can you go beyond that? I hope you can, in many respects, but I think it does fall. It does, it does fall back on that. And of course, some people use the illustration of how many composers Do you know who have written classical music, there's millions of composers, but you only know of a few. So the principal, most of the money made in the music industry is made by a few artists, when there's book sales, you know, there's like, hundreds and hundreds of books released every day. And yet, the money is made by just a handful of people. So the Pareto distribution does work. In fact, Jesus even talked about it, didn't he with the talents? You know, the, actually the one who had the talent that gets given to the person who's made the double the talent. So yeah, so I think it's, I think it's making that as large as large as you can. I don't think it's a fixed number, but it's just that principle. I think, also in terms of just responding to Ben and just that, you know, widening the circle, a couple of people recently and that, you know, it's surprised me, I do find this difficult if people don't know very well, having conversations like in the foyer, and they've said, thanks for taking time to talk to us. And like my top in the conversation has been, hey, it's great. see how you doing? You know, something, maybe? And yet they've made a point of saying, you know, thank you so much for taking time to speak to us because I think in society people do stay well within those confines down there. So I think it's very important. Cool.

Unknown Speaker 25:00

it kind of follows on a little bit from what Ben was saying. And just the idea of widening the circle, but also picked up on what you said about how you do that. And the idea of you showing somebody what to do. You watch them do it, you talk about it, and actually given people the opportunity, because I think we strive for a culture of excellence. And that's great. And we want to do things well. And we want to be consistent in that. But then there's a danger that we hold on to it too much. Like, this is good, it works. Let's stick with it. But actually, we're missing potential in people to just let them have a go, you know, we can do it in a way that's guided and safe. But actually, by doing that, then we might get that goal, we might break that barrier of the 10%. But just by putting our own kind of need for perfection aside, to give them the opportunity or row.

Nathan Benger 25:55

The last thing I think I'll I'll say and then close it, there is you mentioned, and I don't think people think about this, when you talk about who's next minute, much of what we think about who's next is what can people do. And a job and, you know, and, and that is part of it in terms of you know, we talked a lot about like youth leaders connect groups, but you mentioned the whole thing around disciple and, and I think it's just really important to recognise that. Actually, it's part of discipleship. It's not just we, we need you, because we need more, you know, people to do this, or people to do that. Actually, it's part of discipleship. And you mentioned the phrase, I can't remember it off by art, the Connect group thing in terms of nobody gets lost, and nobody's hidden kind of thing. And the whole thing around care, and just seeing and recognising people and you, you mentioned a few things like attitudes, people's levels of passion, those kinds of things. And I think it's just really important when we're thinking of those will lead and those who are next, to have those conversations, when we do notice those things, not in a way of, you know, your attitudes been terrible, but asking the question, are you okay? I think it's the care thing that is really important for people. And like one of one of the things that I've always thought about and ask God is showing me when I need to ask the question, are you okay? Is everything all right? You don't quite see in yourself, those kinds of things. Because if that doesn't happen, very quickly, people can end up, you know, like you said, Who's Next is challenging? That can be a season when people do drop off, anything like that. So, yeah, I just thought that was really important for us to recognise that. Anything to close.

Paul Benger 27:54

Now, I think I think it's been a great, great discussion, I think just in terms of, and I think Lucy's point is really important. Just that the key thing in, you know, not not worrying too much about the perfection, but giving people the opportunity, widening the circle. And the key thing, then is that follow up conversation. How do you think it when do you think you do and something we're doing in all our campuses at the moment is when people speak, we ask them to fill in a personal evaluation of their talk, and then somebody in the room fills in what they thought as well, just in terms on the on the back of that, and I just think that's part of that whole coaching, training, developing growing, that who's next? And I just love the fact that, you know, we've had that culture, I think, for many years, and I think I just got a sense that it's going to get stronger as we go forward.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai