CEP SEASON THREE EP: 03 - WITH LUCY PEPPIATT
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
The Church Explained podcast is a conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your Church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. During each show, we discuss leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests.
Welcome to Season 3, Episode: 03 of the Church Explained Podcast with guest Lucy Peppiatt
A short bio about Lucy
Lucy is the Principal of WTC, a Hub-based theological college in the UK. She’s a systematic theologian who teaches Christian doctrine and spiritual formation courses. She’s authored several books on topics such as discipleship, 1 Corinthians, women in the Bible, and humanity made in the image of God. She and her husband, Nick Crawley, live in Bristol, where they attend Crossnet Church, a church they planted 18 years ago.
In part two, we explore with Lucy the need for leaders to know our identity in God as this forms part of our discipleship.
We hope you enjoy it.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
CREATED BY AI - SO NOT 100% accurate.
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church.
Nathan Benger 0:09
Bro. Well, in just thinking of the future, what is that what you see them for discipleship that it has to become into, you know those small accountability vulnerability kind of groups? Or is there anything else that you see on the horizon?
David Mckeown 0:27
In the next five years? What does it look like
Lucy Peppiatt 0:29
in the next five years? I think that I think those smaller groups and real relationships are very key. And I think theology. So when I wrote The disciple, I think what I wanted to do was to think about what are the theological foundations of how we understand discipleship, so who, and I found myself coming back to identity, you know, so understanding who we are, in Jesus, I think is such a key thing. And it will remain probably the the main thing of, and I think it speaks to a contemporary world. Because it seems to me that people are quite lost about who, who they are, and what constitutes the kind of core of a human being, and the fact that they are fundamentally and unconditionally loved by God. You know, if if that truth can be communicated, then I feel like discipleship will be so much easier. Because really, it's it's followership, isn't it, it's following flippin learning and an End If, if people know that they're following the person who only has their best interests at heart, who completely knows them, you know, everything about them and loves them unconditionally, and who will never be shocked by anything we can tell him because he knows it already. You know, and, and, and is the great healer. I mean, Jesus is, is the one who, you know, all of the brokenness of our lives, and our internal brokenness and the brokenness of our relationships, that if we, if people could really understand that Jesus can properly heal that, I think that there'll be one over by him, and then if, if they will, and this is why I love Dallas Willard, because I think that he, he does found all his ideas about discipleship on Jesus being the most captivating person in the world, you know, and being the most beautiful, and the most loving and the cleverest person, this, I love Dallas, we love bringing that out, you know, and you think, if someone's that attractive, and that is amazing, and that loving, and that focused on you as an individual, and your well being, then you know, what is not to love, really. And that loving relationship is where is the context of the discipleship? So if we can, if we can achieve that, you know, if we can communicate all of that, and I would, that's why I love charismatic Church, because I didn't understand that until I was around people who understood the power of the Holy Spirit. And when I encountered that, I thought, Oh, wow, this is like, this is vital. This is full of life. This is full of people who think that God is so real, that he can talk to you and he can, you know, he can be part of your life. And it just is such a dynamic way. And I And so, yeah, I think we're well placed to be able to do it. And so that's the task before.
David Mckeown 4:04
Yeah, definitely. Good. I mean, there's there's also you said, before we get the next question, I wonder if we could just pause for a second because I think there's something in there even about Church leaders who are maybe listening to this, and maybe one of the things they need is just to let God to begin to heal them. Maybe they need something, you know, just of what you've shared. They're losing the work of the Holy Spirit of fresh in their lives, as they head into the year 2023 Is the journey over this year. Maybe they just need to take space and realise that actually Jesus has their best intentions for them. Yeah. Some of that language there. Boy, do you know what some of the language we use here IKON Church is human flourishing. And I think sometimes leaders just need to pause and think it's not just about others, but it's about the fact that God has the best for them, as well. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 4:57
So yeah, newest book is Imago Dei, think, say that right? You can correct me. But would you be able to share some insights on your newest book?
Lucy Peppiatt 5:11
Yes, definitely. So it's one of those strange things that it's in Margo day. But it's, it is a bit funny. So theologians use Greek and Latin phrases, which mostly are useful, because they are a kind of shorthand. So people use that phrase, which is a Latin phrase, to mean, it's a shorthand for humanity made in the image of God, which is the subtitle. But I do get that people are not going to, you know, most, most people don't really know what that means. And so, I was asked to write the book quite a long time ago took me a very long time to get around to writing it, because it's actually quite a short textbook, explaining how the doctor the doctrine that humanity is made in the image and likeness of God, which comes from Genesis 126, and 27, male and female, He created them, you know, in His image and in His likeness. So that kind of short passage of Scripture, which were given, we were given very little data really, on what that means we're told that it's a fact, you know, this is how this is what has happened, God made human beings like him. But in terms of what it means we're not given a lot of information in the scriptures, we have to kind of piece things together. And so this book is an explanation of how, how theologians understood that through the ages, and how the concept developed, and what it means to people now in the present day. So it was is a very interesting book to write. But it took me a lot longer than I thought it was going to.
Nathan Benger 7:19
In your conclusion, you explain there are there are lots of ways to view it. I wonder if you could just share a little bit more about that, in terms of there are those many ways to view this?
Lucy Peppiatt 7:32
Yes, the so the, where the Church started with it. Interestingly, because it was it the gospel took root, in a multicultural society, where you had Jews and Greeks and Romans all living alongside each other. And their, their common language was Greek, which is interesting, which is why we have the New Testament written in Greek. And most of them living in the Middle East and in North Africa, and in what we now think of as Turkey, and Europe would have been multilingual. And so the to begin with in this culture where the gospel sort of took root, a lot of people thought that, that being made in the image and likeness of God, you could identify something that was part of being human that was godlike. So that was called the substantial view of the image of God because there's almost like, is there a substance in us that you can say all that's where God that's what looks like God. And sometimes it's called the ontological view, because ontology is to do with A being the nature of beings. So just because we are, what is it about our being, that makes us like God, and so they concluded that what it was about the nature of our being was, was really our kind of soul. And that makes sense, because the idea that there's that human beings, that God is not embodied, you know, God is Spirit, and God is triune. And so it had to be something spiritual, if you like, that was like God. And so it would be the soul, but more the kind of higher ability in human beings to understand God. So if you and another thing we did in the first few 100 years was to make a big distinction between animals and human beings. So to say, you know, human beings are like God, because they're not like animals. So they've got language and they've got memory and they've got relationship and they can pray to God and they can worship and all those things. Whereas interestingly, now we have we're much more intune with the potential in creation, to, in a sense, have its own life, you know, and now that we've done all this, all this, this science that says that we share so much DNA with animals, and you know, to me, and we're still it's not like we're saying we're exactly like animals, but I think the gaps closed a bit. So we think very differently now, obviously, from how people thought 2000 years ago, that was one view. And then another view is called the vocational view. And that is that we are made in the image and likeness of God, because of what we are called to do and beyond the Earth, and I'm sure you're familiar with, that with the Bible projects work. And people, a lot of people know about the Bible, per se, they would take very much vocational view in talking about human beings as a royal priesthood. And that being made in God's image and likeness, is being really made in the image of Christ, who himself is the royal king, he's the king, but he's also the priest, the high priest between us and God, the mediator. And that human being somehow shared that vocation and calling with Jesus Christ. So that's the second one. And then the third one that I deal with is the relational view, which is that we're made in the image and likeness of God, because we're made to be in a covenant relationship with Him. And so the ability that we have to relate to him uniquely as humans differently from creatures animals, is our specific way that we are created. So they're all I mean, they're all really rich ideas, really interesting ideas, and I kind of had to split over the surface of quite a lot of them. But that just gives you a brief
Unknown Speaker 11:54
introduction now really interesting, I guess on on that, then you've got all of these ideas, I guess, in terms of our theology, then do you think we should view theology as static? Or should we have more agile approach in terms of our theology?
Lucy Peppiatt 12:11
Well, that's, you've got such good questions, Nathan. We could talk about lots of things for a long time. And I think both is what I think, because some, there are some things. So I'm a student of Christian doctrine. And that's what I study most. And there are some doctrines, which I think are fixed if you like, you know, there are things that the Church has decided. This is what we believe. And we have creeds that say, we believe and those Creed's are one of them was written in three to five, ad, and has endured, it's been modified over the years, the first few 100 years. But basically, the essence of it remained the same. And the worldwide Church, the Church, through the hit throughout history has been able to recite this creed together. And so the things that we can continue to say, we believe in one God, you know, Father, almighty, maker of heaven, and earth, of all things seen and unseen, now that those things are so important. So that in one sense is static, if you like, it's fixed. But then when you think about it, once you've said those things, we believe in the in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, you know, we believe in the Incarnation, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of the life. But those doctrines that we can say we all believe in, give rise to multiple questions and ideas, you know, and then we say, so, if we believe all of that, then what are the implications of that for you guys, living where you live today with your neighbours, your family? The people you know, and you don't know, your politics, your ethics, you know, your future, your calling all the decisions you make in life, and what are the implications for me? So that is when theology is constantly evolving, and shifting and changing, and it's all about the conversation of, you know, how do we take the principles of the Christian faith, which we agree upon? And then how do we apply all those things to our lives, which will look very different for different generations and different cultures and different age groups and you know, all of that. So good.
David Mckeown 14:56
Great. Yeah, I think that'll really help. Lots of different people. As I hear that today, hey, listen, we got a few more questions for you today. Before we wrap up, we want to thank you for being on the show with us. Before we get the quickfire questions, we want to find out who sort of inspires you the most and why, of course, you can't say the obvious Jesus we're going to take that is a read. So who else inspires you and why?
Lucy Peppiatt 15:25
I, do you want concrete people, or
David Mckeown 15:30
you can go whatever way you want.
Lucy Peppiatt 15:38
I might, I might leave names out because I'd probably embarrass people. I think that the the people who really inspire me, are people who are secure enough to be quite obscure. And who exhibit that kind of faithfulness, and steadiness that I think it's just yeah, I find it deeply admirable and inspirational. And actually, I will, I will mention that to people I saw on Monday night, there's many people who inspire me and some of them are actually academics. But in a in a Church setting. I was I was with a couple and I know there will be deeply embarrassed if they ever hear this called Robin Pam Scott Cook. And they live in Bristol, and they they have started ran Woody's Church Woodlands Church and and it's just partly because they're on my mind. And I I wasn't able to attend a celebration of their 52 years in ministry, but I watched it online. And and I honestly would say I find them truly inspirational, because they put God they always seem to put God first. They're really honest and open people. Their loving Pam is huge fun and just makes me laugh. And yeah, they they are two people who inspire me.
Nathan Benger 17:18
So good. Love that. Love that 52 years. That's incredible. So
David Mckeown 17:21
in ministry,
Nathan Benger 17:22
well done a ministry well done to those guys, that is incredible.
Lucy Peppiatt 17:25
And still smiling as you're praying. You know, I'm still loving. I mean, that's wonderful.
Nathan Benger 17:33
We got a few quickfire questions just to finish off this episode. So, Lucy, what would you focus on first, if you could live the last decade again?
Lucy Peppiatt 17:45
If I can live my last decade again, I would focus, I would actually focus on my family. I it's a great privilege for me to have had four children. And I think sometimes I was very distracted. And you know, life gets so busy. And sometimes I wish Yeah, I mean, I was hugely caught up with my job, actually, in the last 10 years working full time. And I believe that God wants me in it. And but sometimes I feel like I didn't have enough energy, well,
David Mckeown 18:27
being shared with your family there. And the next question alongside that is, what are you most excited about at the moment and challenged about maybe
Lucy Peppiatt 18:38
I'm always excited about my work, my academic work, so I love my writing. I'm very excited about that night, that sort of keeps me ticking over and that also is an enormous challenge having to shape books and and essays and things like that. So that's exciting and challenging for me, but it personally but I I'm actually I'm quite excited about the prospect of growing the prophetic becoming more prominent in the Church. And I, I don't, I might be wrong, but I just have a feeling that God is going to grow us as prophetic people. And I think he may bring people into the Church, maybe new believers who are very gifted in the prophetic and I think that will be an enormous challenge for the Church, but it could also be potentially very exciting,
Nathan Benger 19:40
ya know, amazing. What would be your top two book recommendations and why
David Mckeown 19:45
you can't choose your own
Lucy Peppiatt 19:54
not more like this Oh, no, no, I definitely. That's, that's really funny. And can I give a Can I give this
David Mckeown 20:07
theology? Anything? Yeah, definitely.
Lucy Peppiatt 20:10
I, I say this many times, I would love people to pick up Athanasius his book on the incarnation. It's a very small book, I said at the beginning that one of the topics I absolutely love is Christology, or we call it Christology the study of Jesus. So that would be a book recommendation that I would, I would really recommend. And actually, I've just said, just because it's on the top of my mind, I recently just read two books by novels. I don't read a lot of novels. But I was I was very pleased to read two novels by Joanna Glenn. And they are quite sad, it would just come with a warning deal with the topics of death and suffering, but are also beautiful and redemptive. And so I would recommend her book write
David Mckeown 21:07
a shadow then. And our final question today is what is your favourite meal of choice?
Lucy Peppiatt 21:16
My favourite meal well funnily enough, I got asked that recently, and I said roast chicken and I think I've been on a very restricted diet which is a bit sad because as I said, I absolutely love food. So that's kind of cut down my number of meals that I would put in my top 10 And I've been able to eat meat because it's no gluten no dairy and no various other things. So I think for now I'm going to stick with that really, really nice roast chicken with crispy roast potatoes and some steamed vegetables is one
Nathan Benger 21:59
solid choice
David Mckeown 22:03
that was a very good description that I liked the description where those roots potatoes I was just thinking of Jamie Oliver's roots potatoes stuff.
Nathan Benger 22:11
Yeah. Lucy, what's the what's the best way people can connect with you? Maybe via social media or website?
Lucy Peppiatt 22:21
Yes, I'm on Twitter. And I'm not a brilliant tweeter, but I haven't there. I have a Facebook page we have a on our website WT see website, we have a section called WT see resource, which has a couple of courses on there that I've done, which are free. Obviously, please come and study with W etc. That would be wonderful. And then you get me as a teacher and lots of other brilliant teachers. And then I have an academia page where I have a few articles up on academia.edu and I have various kinds of videos online and I've also today, the Bible project has just released my course on one Corinthians in the Bible project asked him so that would be great if anyone wants to take a course on one Corinthians that's also completely free. And I loved filming that with my classroom. I had six students absolutely brilliant students asked fantastic questions and we had an amazing time together. So that's all on that's all out today.
David Mckeown 23:35
You kept the right to the last moment that's an exciting project that and so is that on their website or on yours? It's on there is it they're part of their classroom project stuff or somewhere something exactly Yeah. Fantastic.
Nathan Benger 23:50
That's fantastic is is well it's been great to have you wonderful Lucy with us and it's been an amazing conversation and big thanks to everyone who's listened please share rate review subscribe wherever you're listening to this content send it over to a friend who you know this was the last as well. And don't forget also you can check out IKON dot Church for slash open for loads of free resources. But it's been great to have Lucy with us on the church explained podcast been great to be together and we look forward to next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
