CEP SEASON THREE EP: 11 - WITH GUEST CARL NICHOLS

Mar 23

By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger

Welcome to Season 3, Episode: 11 of the Church Explained Podcast with guest Carl Nichols.

A SHORT BIO ABOUT CARL

I have been married to my wife Julie for 23 years. Pastor of Relevant Church just south of Atlanta, GA. It started in 2010 with five people; now, we have 3,000 regularly attending.

In part two of our conversation, Carl Nichols from Relevant Church shares some insightful ideas on how to build a healthy church culture. He emphasises that the last 5% of what we do is just as important as the first 95% of our efforts to achieve excellence.

We hope you enjoy it.

SHOW NOTES

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

CREATED BY AI - SO NOT 100% accurate.

David Mckeown 0:00

Hey, welcome to part two of our conversation with Carl Nichols. If you missed part one, I'd encourage you to go back and get hold of that you will really, really enjoy it. But let's listen in and take some notes as you can, if you're not driving, and you'll get some great content here in parts a.

Nathan Benger 0:19

Bro, what, just just kind of thinking on this thought of crisis and different things? What, what about in the midst of crisis or even in challenge? What have you learned about keeping like those relationships? Strongs strong in those times? And how important is that, and just thinking about people, you know, in their marriages, maybe even people who are single as well, and also within your team? What's the importance of that?

Carl Nichols 0:46

I'll give you an example. And then maybe we can unpack some some thoughts from it. So we were building this building. It's about a $6 million building that we were building, and then everything shuts down. And there's all these questions as to Okay, are we going to have the funds to sustain? Are we going to be able to build a building at the cost that was quoted us because all the reasons, you know, like, for example, pouring asphalt, aggregate for asphalt skyrocketing. So we had a not to exceed budget. Obviously, there were some some some hiccups there that the builder went way over. And we had a conversation on the side of they were like, we have to deal with this. Well, in that season, it was probably the most stressful four months of my life. So not only are you doing COVID, we're trying to get into a building that we don't know, when people are coming back. I'm trying to deal with all the legal stuff there. And the importance of relationships just for me, when I didn't realise how bad I needed people just embrace me and love me and care for me and say, Hey, it's okay, we got your back. And I felt like in that season, that four month window, I was a little one, I was very on edge, because I didn't know what tomorrow held. And it wasn't related to coal, but as much as it was the financial components of the building and various things of that nature. Because you don't you don't know what is the unknown. And so for marriage, it's for example, in marriage, I don't know that I did the best job of communicating and that season, my wife, all the emotions that I was feeling. So I think I think in the middle of crisis, we get in go mode, we don't slow down to say, Okay, here's what's happening, here's what's going on. And so processing that. So that's just kind of the married, married, you know, version of the family version, also not not losing sight of what your kids are going through and making sure you hear and they see. So just keeping those open lines of communication, I think, from a staff and leadership perspective, or a team perspective, don't always I think you in crisis, you have to assume that people are struggling. Not that, okay, we just got to because I'm a more, let's go solve the problem. Let's go fix it. But not everybody is wired that way. And so they're processing in a different way. And so understanding people, we talk a lot about temperament here, we talked a lot about the way you were you were wired, before you developed a personality through your life, what is your natural wiring. So we've done a lot of temporal understanding here about our team and what that means and how to communicate with one another. And so I think if you want to keep relationships strong, you just have to show that you care about one another. And unfortunately, we don't always hear and communicate in the same way. So you got to learn about the people know more about the people, I understand my wife better today through temperament counselling and various things, and I did five years ago, I understand my kids better today, because I understand myself better. So there's a lot of that our whole staff is going through temperament counselling, we're learning about each other and learning, I'm learning to lead them better. They're learning to respond to me better and their senior leaders. And so I think just communication is a key to every every relationship, right? And so not only do we have to communicate, we have to communicate effectively and understand how to communicate with different different types of mindsets, personalities, temperance.

David Mckeown 3:43

All right, good. So we've talked a little bit the corner by culture, and I guess having the right type of culture in the Church and trying to build out what what could you share with us today with our listeners around this idea of, of creating a positive and healthy culture within the Church to really cause it to grow?

Carl Nichols 4:02

Yeah, okay. So culture is probably one of my biggest passions. I think. I heard something about 10 years ago, that really made me understand well, about 16 years ago, I heard somebody say, the number one job of a Pastor, whether you agree or disagree with this statement or not, is irrelevant, I think and whether I agreed with it was irrelevant. What was important was that it made me think differently. He made the statement or when McManus said Pastor should be a cultural architect, meaning you must design and build culture for sustainability. And I've done a lot of real estate in my life and own a real estate company on the side. And it made me start thinking about culture in the Church and in team settings, much like it would if I were building a house, what's it gonna look like? What's the structure? What's the systems all of those things but, but cultural architect is different than designing house. So what are the systems within the Church? How do we sustain those systems? Well, culture is the soil that allows things to grow at the root word of culture. is the same word as cultivate some cultivating something that can take root and as help, and strength and roots that can sustain. And so a couple thoughts on culture that I have, culture becomes the worst behaviour that the leader is willing to tolerate. And so if I tolerate a staff member just showing up late, I'm gonna eventually have a late culture. If I tolerate, you know, negativity amongst our staff or talking about people, rather than talking to people, what's going to happen is I might have a staff full of disgruntled people, that's going to be the culture of my team. And so we say, you have to understand who you are your mission, obviously, but your values are so important. What is it that you value, because values drive behaviours, and behaviours create culture. So if you look at every culture across the world, it's a set of agreed upon behaviours, they interact with each other in certain ways. That's what creates southern culture, northern culture in the States, European culture. British culture is how you interact with one another, we want to set a set of values that says, here's how we're going to define how we react and respond to one another. So relevant, we have two sets of values, we have our Church values, and we have our staff values, our staff values are how we're interacting with our staff. So one of our staff values is we embrace brave communication. In other words, we're going to talk to one another about real issues, rather than talking about one another. So that's how we're going to have hard conversations, that's what we value because that's how you're going to be create a culture of solving problems, and winning another stat value is we, we finished the five. So the lot we say the last excellence is in the last 5% We're not going to leave anything done, we believe the last 5% is almost as important as the first 95. So we hold people accountable, hey, when you didn't finish, you know, you came and we did Easter, but we left the building in a mess. Well, that was the last 5%. And so then the next ministry came in, and the next ministry got hurt because of our lack of finishing. So we let those values drive our behaviours. And then those behaviours create create culture. And so a couple of just, I don't know, tweetable things about culture, um, the, you have to work twice as hard on culture as you do on vision. Because a good vision will die in a bad culture. So if I take and put seeds in bad soil, it doesn't matter how good the seed is, the seeds not going to survive. So a good vision dies in a bad culture. Here's the other thing, a bat an average vision, just an average, what you and I will consider well, okay, it's, it's, it sounds good, let's see how it plays itself out can thrive in a great culture. So I use the example of a 15 year old son, an 11 year old son, I can say to my boys, Hey, boys, I want you to grow up, I want you to go to this college, I want you to be a doctor, we're going to do it this way. And I have this elaborate vision for their life. And I have, okay, this is what I desire for your life. But if I create a toxic culture in my home, they're leaving when they're 18. They don't care what dad says. So a good vision, a positive vision, can die in a bad culture. But if I say to my boys, I want you to grow up love Jesus, love your wife and do whatever God calls you to do. We know that's a big vision, but it's really generic. Does that make sense? It's not even clear. It's just, okay, whatever got it. But I cultivate in my home, a culture of interaction and embracing and challenging the process and godliness and communication now created a healthy culture for that seemingly unclear vision to take root and grow and become something great. So I say all the time, Pastor, pastors want to work on their vision, they want to know what's coming. And I say, work on your culture of your staff and of your Church. Because otherwise they don't like that stuff is going to, you're going to get an initial success or initial bump, and then it's going to fade if the culture can't sustain

Unknown Speaker 8:55

it Yeah, I love that love, and love the cultural architects. I actually think it was Rich Wilkerson Jr. Say a phrase culture either happens by design or by default. You can either design it, or it'll just happen by default. So just thinking about those values and just the things in terms of like with your team, how do you make sure they're not just like values on a wall or you know, on a bit of paper, but actually their outward I know, you use the word accountability, but how does that look for you in your Church? And, you know, for you as as a Pastor, as well?

Carl Nichols 9:33

Sure, a couple of things that I would say first of all, I say this, you can make the right the wrong decision for the right reason, the right value, and we can work through it. It can be the wrong decision. But if you make a cultural like if you if you violate a value when making a decision, that's a tougher conversation. So, you know, especially when it comes to Church values or staff values, those are those are both of those matters depends on the context. You're in. So if you, if you if you violate a value, because like, for example, we have transformational environments, that's one of our values, at our Church values, we create an environment and allow the Holy Spirit to transform hearts, we want to do everything we can to break down walls. So let's say you're trying to create a transformational environment. And you, you think this was the way to go. But it ended up being a flop. But you come and say, I really thought I was trying to create a transformational environment, here's where you made the wrong decision we're going to learn from, but if you just fail to acknowledge that we were trying to create a transformational environment, and you get sloppy, or you get lazy, or you don't finish the fight, well, then we're going to have a tough conversation about that. Now, here's where we have a feedback format, our senior staff or whoever your direct report is, will meet with you five times a year, six times a year, really, because a year and renew every every two months, we come together, we have three questions we asked each other, or that our senior staff would ask the person reports directly, it's a 30 minute meeting. That's it. The first one is this, what have you done? And what and who have you developed in the last 60 days? So we're and then when that comes out? We obviously write that down. Okay. I don't want to list the things that you know, I've had lunch with seven people, well, that doesn't tell me anything. But if I've poured into three people and move them into a level of leadership, that's a different conversation. So we're checking there to see if our staff is, we call it a feedback format, feedback goes both ways. So if our staff is telling us things that don't don't really align with our bow values, it's easy for us to say, hey, that that's not really accomplishing what we're trying to accomplish. So that's number one. The second question is, what are you going to be working on the next 60 days? Same kind of feedback format? The third question is, what do you need from me, and as a senior staff, or your leader, and so they have the ability, and they have to say something, they can't say nothing, they have to say something. And then at the bottom, there's a red box at the bottom of that red box, the senior staff then has to say, here's what I need you to do better at the next 60 days, I want you to focus on this value, and it has to align not just hey, I need you to, you know, do more meetings or whatever, it's more like, Okay, I, I've noticed that you offend people with the way you talk to people, you're not honouring our staff, and that I need you to focus on that the next 60 days. So then there's there's feedback formats there. So that's, that's one component of that another way that we ensure that like on a Church level, that we're there, we're not violating our values, at least, that we're making sure that we're there, we're staying true to our values, in our in our, what many people would call next steps, we call it Welcome to relevant, which is just a conversation where we here's the relevant Church, here's how you get involved, here's what, what opportunities are ahead of you, if you want to, we do a thing, interactive kind of conversation where we talk about our eight values, and then we'll do four and then we'll teach another four. But after each four, they made it tables, and they discuss where have you seen these values in our Church. So we're listening to make sure that all eight of those values are being seen. So then, when they come back, and they say, I noticed that, you know, authentic communities have value. And so man, the first time I came here, I just, it just felt like home? Well, we're winning in that that's an immediate feedback format. If any one of those eight values, we quit hearing about something might be wrong. So that's a feedback format that we kind of embrace to say, here's an opportunity for people who are new to our Church to tell us, I was able to notice, you know, visionary leadership, I was able to notice limitless generosity, I was able to notice this by and give us tangible examples of that. So those are feedback formats that allow us to hold people accountable and hold ourselves accountable.

David Mckeown 13:37

Good. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I just been thinking through a couple of things. You've mentioned car, let me give up. We've talked a lot on culture, we've talked a lot on, I guess, I would describe it as having candid conversations with people. Because that's really key to have those strong conversations when things do go wrong, or even when things are going right. But what is communication, like having good communication as a Church or staff or leadership? What value do you play on that? What do you do to make really good and clear communication?

Carl Nichols 14:08

Well, I think my one of my biggest weaknesses is I assume, people know what's in my head. Even when we started the podcast, you're like, Okay, let's go ahead and jump into I can come in like a bull in a china shop and just go, and just, and I don't want to be that, especially when we're being recorded. Right. And, and so I think one of those things is I people don't know what they don't know. And just because I know it doesn't mean they don't they know it. So I've had to build in some things for myself, to make sure that I'm actually downloading what's in here in a clear way. For example, I can go lead a staff meeting, and then my wife can come up and go, does that make sense? And everybody's like, Nope, I have no idea what he's talking about. He went too fast. I didn't get it all and then she'll go through and say, Okay, let's make sure we understand. She really just asked me and I'm like, why are you Why are you saying all this, they should get it, they should know these things. That's just a wiring issue. So what I've realised is clear communication in an ongoing way is not necessarily my strength. And that's okay. But I've had to put people around me. Because when you talk about communication, I think there's three things that we have said, as a Church as a team, there's probably a dozen more that other people can add. But these are things that we do in an ongoing way. We say we need clarity, I mentioned this earlier over certainty. So if the staff is looking for direction, or where we're going, or what's happening next, or they need, hey, you know, when are we going to make this decision? I don't have to have all the answers, but they need enough clarity to continue to move forward to create culture, otherwise, you create a culture that's very much like, I don't know what's going on, or whatever tells us anything, or they tell us one thing, and they do another. So we've gotten to the point where we tell people what we do know. And then we're clear about what we don't know. So we don't know people are saying right now, when are we going to go to three services on a Sunday? Because we're getting to a place where we almost have to do that? And the answer is not before here. But we don't know beyond that. That's the answer. Okay, well, that didn't really tell us that just means you've got until Easter, right? To kind of work this out what not to do before Easter. But we don't know after that. Yeah, we don't know. And we can't make but what we need you to do is we need you to be prepared to pull the trigger on that. In about two weeks, you need you're going to get two weeks notice you're gonna have to be prepared. So that's certainty is not the we didn't answer the certainty questionnaire. But we were very clear about expectations. And people are okay with that. Because they trust that you're going to come back again, with clarity, know what they need to do. So I think that's number one. Number two, I would say, goes back to what we just said, create a reward and a feedback culture, there's got to be checkpoints. Because what'll happen is, you'll find out real clear real quickly, when you sit down with somebody for 30 minutes, every two months. First of all, there's got to be those checkpoints that aren't so far apart. That, Oh, well. Now we're, you know, six months from having our last conversation I didn't realise you had drifted so far. Every 60 days is a good rhythm for us where it's like, okay, great. Here's where I see you doing? Well, here's where I think you need work. Here's where you've drifted. Those are just opportunities for conversations. And I also think there needs to be a reward system. This is not something we've built into like some kind of systematic approach, but but we built it into the rhythms of communication. So if we have once a month, a staff meeting, where we just share wins, that's all we do, we share wins. And what gets rewarded gets repeated. If ministries aren't getting, there's no wins in the ministry, that's a natural feedback conversation. So again, that's communicating what's important in those situations versus going well, this ministry is doing this and you're not doing this. They hear they know, and it's challenging to one another. And then the third one, I would say this is a systematic thing. So two are kind of philosophical clarity over certainty and create feedback culture with checkpoints. But this is a something that's worked for us called the racy principle. So you have four letters that create an acronym, our ACI, the R stands for what group of people are responsible for doing something fulfilling something executing something, those people like, for example, we have, we have a group of engagement specialists on our team. So we have different people from different ministries, but they're very good at creating environments that engage people. So when it comes to Easter lobby experience Christmas lobby experience, Mother's Day lobby experience, we put five of those five people in a room and say, go figure it out, y'all are responsible for making the lobby experience happening on the kids wing, and in the main lobby. So then one of those people will be assigned as the Accountable person. So Ra, A stands for accountable. That means that person's got to pull the team together, the buck stops with that person, it might be a different people at the person every time depending on the season. You know, if we're in a big season, you know, in October, that's a season where we have our we celebrate our birthdays at Church, but we also do some things that are outreach related. Well, I'm not gonna put my kids director over two teams in that season, because she's, she's she can be pulled in multiple directions. So we say this person's accountable. And here's the deadline. So that person calls meetings makes that all the things happen. They're the person that fails, we're going to go to them, they also have the ability when they're accountable to say, so and so's not pulling their weight. They're not showing up for the meetings, they're not coming. They're being difficult. They have that ability, okay, then there's the consultant to see our ACI, the consulting component, there will be times, for example, where the owner, I don't need to be responsible or accountable, but I need to be consulted. Your senior staff needs to be consulted. You might need to consult another ministry to make sure what you're gonna do in that lobby space doesn't interfere with guest services or whatever it may be. So this is just a conversation, getting feedback so that you can make a better decision. And then here's the one that we struggle with the most and we're We're getting better and better and better at it as we've streamlined the AI is who needs to be informed. So we can sit in a room, we can make, you're responsible, you're accountable, we can consult. And now we make all these decisions. And more often than not, the people that need to be informed are volunteers. And they serve and don't know what's going on, because we did all this work, and then didn't inform them. So now you create a culture if you're not careful if you don't inform people of what they need, and here's the thing, not everybody needs to be informed of everything. And I've told our staff, you've got to be comfortable not being in every meeting, you've got to be comfortable showing up sometimes on Sundays going, I didn't know this was happening, that's just part of a growing Church. But the informed component, if our guest services team shows up for something in our lobby experience team has come up and done all this stuff in their space, and they weren't informed. Now we've got a cultural issue. So that's how we keep that communication amongst you know, various ministries in a large Church. It's just a simple check point, hey, let's apply the basic principle to this before we leave today. And then once it's applied, now, we just got to have those checkpoints to revisit.

David Mckeown 21:01

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. And just thinking about racy principle for a moment, then just to really get the nuts and bolts of that if we can. Is that more just a verbal communication? Or is that like a document? Do you get your guys to go through? And actually write something in? That's almost like a template? How do you guys do that?

Carl Nichols 21:21

You know, I think this is where I'm, I'm not the type. But if I'm assigning it, then then they're required to write it down, and their senior staff making sure that they got it. I'm not, I'm not writing anything down. Because that wears me out. That's a mental task. I think there are some churches that would structure and it would be good if you have, we don't have, you know, if we use the RACI principle, and everything, we would probably have it in some kind of, you know, in our base camp thread, which is our interoffice communication and various things. There are times however, if it's a big Easter event, or a Christmas event, or something where it's multiple teams, and there will be a message board that will go out that will have that in that. But if it's a small task, like, hey, I need a group for you guys to get together and think through, you know, traffic flow in the parking lot, because our parking lot slammed, you know, that's not something we're gonna put on paper. That's a that's a something in two weeks, we can have an answer to you know what I mean? So I think it depends on the size of the task. And, and really how many people are going to need to be informed and what needs to be documented along the way?

David Mckeown 22:23

Got it? length.

Nathan Benger 22:26

Now, I think there's so much right throughout our conversation that people can take away, one of the things we would love to do to finish off with is some quickfire questions. So get ready, call these quick fire in your face questions. So here we go. What are you most excited about the moment?

Carl Nichols 22:45

Oh, well, two things, I would say one, on a personal level, I'm excited that I'm finally getting to take my sabbatical that I was supposed to take in 2020, taking a month off in September, and the family has been wanting to come over there to you guys. I mean, we're doing a Mediterranean cruise I say to guys in your area. So I'm really excited about having that month with a family just to kind of disconnect on a on a ministry and leadership level. I'm really excited because we've just kind of redesigned our approach to our groups. And we're seeing incredible just life change happen in our groups. And we're in a deep study of the New Testament in our groups. And I'm excited, I think I think that's going to change our Church. I think it's gonna change people's families there. I mean, we got families doing the adult version of the cyber ship, we get kids doing the kid version, having conversations, so that's very, very exciting, because I think it's gonna pay dividends long, long over the long haul.

David Mckeown 23:35

So that is a quick follow up question. But you have dropped something, though, that could be interesting at another point. Because that sort of stuff, grips and the life transformation. I think that could be a different conversation at another point card, for sure. But hey, what are you most challenged about at the moment?

Carl Nichols 23:56

Well, I think we live on the south side of Atlanta, and the south side of Atlanta is the one of the lower income sides of the city. And it's not poverty. But the type of ministry we do is not not not inexpensive. And I think the biggest challenge that we're facing is we have this nice building we have you know, our budget, all those things are working incredible, but we really want to start a Counselling Centre. And we have counselling. We have one counsellor on staff, we have a second one coming on staff, I shouldn't say a Counselling Centre, we want to start a wholeness and Wellness Centre. That includes drug and alcohol rehabilitation that includes you know, health and fitness, all kinds of things that go into making that person whole. And just to be honest with you. We're not in a place where we're even close to being able to financially do that, because that's another, you know, million and a half minimum dollar project and we're getting our feet back under us from building a $5.8 million building and opening it with nobody in the building. So things are strong things are healthy for what we're doing now. But the challenge is the mission and the vision that we have Out is like we want this is the long game, right? This is the thing we're talking about, like, we have to look two or three years down the road because we need it, we feel like we need it now. We see 120 clients a month, and we can't and we're bringing on a new new counsellor. I mean, we and then that one's the new counsellor coming on as backed up already. We have another counsellors that are looking to partner with us, we're meeting with them tomorrow at the time of this recording. So there's a lot of challenges is here's what I say it's, it's not a problem to solve it's attention to manage the issue though, when you see people bringing all the hurt, the pain that things are going through, it can feel like a crisis to solve. And so for us, we have to trust God's sovereignty and that but it's definitely a challenging. It's a challenging road to know how and when to tackle that crisis. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 25:48

So call what are your top two book recommendations? And a quick why behind them?

Carl Nichols 25:54

Yeah, so let me give you one personal on one leadership. First of all, I love to listen to audiobooks. But I'm not a I'm not the best reader or the best writer. So I hear things as my best way of learning. And so I had to force myself to read a book a month, and then an audio book, everything else. But I'm gonna give you two simple ones. Because I think a lot of times, I'll hear people say, Oh, you gotta read this book. And it's a book everybody's heard of, or it's a book that's, you know, very deep and hard to process. So let me give you a personal one. Personal one is I love Hillary Morgan fares book, Mama Bear apologetics. She talks a lot about especially in the American culture. And I know this is not unique to America, but But uh, empowering your kids to understand and live out God's design culture has hijacked so many things and twisting the way our kids view God. So that one, and then she has another one about sexuality as well, which is great mother's apologetic guide to sexuality. So those two kind of go hand in hand and then one that I mentioned earlier, it's called procrastinate on purpose. That one is a is pure goal. Rory Vaden writes that one. And it's just the ability to learn when to make decisions, that you don't feel like you're making the decision over and over and over again. So in a nutshell, it's learning to have a great return on time investment is what it is. So right and right.

David Mckeown 27:21

Okay, good answers that, and he inspires you the most at the moment in the world. It could be anybody.

Carl Nichols 27:29

You know, I knew you probably asked that question. And I'm not wanting to say this about, about my kids. It's probably the first time I've ever said it. But I do have a 15 year old that I'm very encouraged and inspired by right now. Not. And look, it might not be long. I haven't ever said this. He's 15. But he's in college. He's, he's gonna have a two year degree and he's going to graduate high school by the time he's 17. So that's inspiring, but on a deeper level, that he's really wrestling with this call to ministry. And so he he does feel called to ministry to do full time ministry in some capacity. And that man that'll inspire you, as a Pastor, as a dad, as a husband, as a Christ follower, to keep doing what you're doing to invest into him. And I got 11 year old and I'm like, okay, he's inspired me to continue to do good with my 11 year old. So I know that's probably not the answer most would give when you start sort of Who inspires you the most in the world. I'm not in there. He's a 15 year old teenager, I'm still his dad, I still have to deal with that stuff. But I'm inspired by what God's doing in his life. And so I can watch a lot of listen to a lot of podcasts, watch a lot of clips, and not be near as inspired is when I see him doing his devotionals serving in his Church, asking God what it is he asked for his future and those types of things. So

David Mckeown 28:49

that's a great, that's awesome. Yeah, I'm sure the your sons will be really encouraged by that. So big shout out to them as well for doing

Unknown Speaker 28:57

so the ways that you've given us the ways to connect with you are through a website, www dot the good life.cc. Also, you can follow call Nichols. All one word on Instagram, and also on Facebook is nickels call just after facebook.com but Carl, it's been amazing to have you on the church explained podcast and thanks so much for your time.

Carl Nichols 29:24

No, that's great, that good life podcast that good life.cc Is the podcast that we do here and so you can I just link that rather than putting all the platforms and so if you want more content, more conversations around just how to find the good life in Christ, man that's where you can find it. So thank you all for having me. It's been a joy

David Mckeown 29:41

it's been a pleasure to have you with us I think should I tell all that you're doing with Church they're relevant Church and all the guys on the team and all this stuff as well. It's it's yeah, what's happening

Unknown Speaker 29:51

yeah, so that's it for the church explained podcast want to thank you for joining us on this episode. Don't forget you to rate review. So Subscribe and share this episode wherever you're consuming this content and don't forget there are free resources for you and your Church at IKON dot Church forward slash open but we look forward to seeing you next time on the church explained podcast we'll see you soon

Transcribed by https://otter.ai