CEP SEASON THREE EP: 19 - WITH GUESTS PJ & ULRICA STENSTRAND
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
In this episode of the Church Explained podcast, we discuss with PJ and Ulrica various topics related to leadership, mentoring, and longevity in ministry. We talk about the importance of understanding one's perspective and the need to get through tough times.
We also share practical tips for effective leadership, such as having clear communication and establishing boundaries. Additionally, we discuss the importance of training and developing leaders within the church and the need for authenticity in leadership. Finally, they share their thoughts on transitioning into leadership roles and the importance of staying hungry for more.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast, a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. But there is something about that perspective. You've mentioned that a couple of times haven't perspective. Yeah. And I remember when I started ministry, a few years back, someone said to me, you know, you'll hit the wall, probably every seven years, you or your Church will go through something. Yeah. But you have to get through the other side of Yeah. And I think there's something about that knowing, hey, you know, there's young leaders there saying, Hey, you may hit the wall. Yeah. But it's not the end of the world. No, get up and go again, and see what God's gonna do in your life. And that's that stories of combat.
PJ 0:39
It fits, you know, even our journey, you know, almost every seventh year, you know, we've seen somebody mess up somehow more on failure, or something that has been really, really tough to deal with, but, but we Church just keep trucking on. And we keep, you know, we keep on going. And, and, you know, last man standing is a good thing. You know, the older I get, the more I am in that type of inner inner conversation, I want to finish the race finishes strong. Yeah. And we can do that. We can do that. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 1:17
I just love that thought around empathy and pouring hope in. And it just reminds me of some of the Apostle Paul's words where he says, encourage one another daily. Yeah. And that word encouragement into courage and, and, you know, like to give hope, and, you know, and, you know, just think that we need more of that, you know, putting the courage in, you know, it's not just the arm around the shoulders, say, here, here, you know, it's, it's kind of like the, you know, actually, no, we're in this together, we can get through this, we can push through this, that that becomes the powerful absolute side of
Ulrica Stenstrand 1:55
another very practical tip, as well. I've never during 37 years, you can't find an angry email or a text from me, you know, yelling at a co worker, or I'm not angry so much at all. But sometimes you can write something in anger, send it away, and you don't know where you're going to find that email. Or that text. So don't go there. Yeah, go for a walk, go to the gym. Cool down, talk to someone. Don't go there. Because you never know where you're gonna find that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, and it's like, oh, I wrote that once. I was so mad. Yeah, maybe you got all the right to be mad. That's one thing. But you deal with things face to face, you deal with things face to face.
David Mckeown 2:41
Funny, you should say. I've been listening to an audible book on I think it's Dallas Willard. transformation of the heart. None of you have come across that one. But he was sharing the story in there bytes of one of the Pastor and his staff member done something wrong on a Sunday morning. And, you know, they went out of the back and he really laid into him. But he didn't realise he still had his mic on. And they said suddenly, that Pastor felt the need to move on. Yeah. Maybe it was long bonds thing going forward, exposed, exposed. And his point was, if he does that in private, you know, he was caught out that time, but I often say do that. Yeah. And it's something about keeping accountability. Yeah. If we were to think about that for a second, think of coaching and mentoring. What what do you think that fits in the sense of having that in our lives as we think of leadership and mastering the long haul?
Ulrica Stenstrand 3:40
I think it's important to ask a question again, it's like asking if I was mentoring you, how can I help you? You tell me how I can help you? I don't know. Well, then you come back. Because, you know, I can help you without some things. But what do you need? Yeah. That's so important request. Yeah. Ask the right questions. Yeah.
PJ 4:01
Well, credibility is the foundation of leadership. So I think even when you mentor others, you know, you you gotta bite that bullet to you know, somehow because if I were coaching a somebody in athletics, they want to, they want to know, yeah, I mean, you you're in long jump, or pole jumping or whatever, you know, it's just like, you know, if you, if you start your, you know, just foot, put your feet, you know, and just half an inch short 30 centimetres back and you're gonna jump higher or longer or whatever, you know, wouldn't you want to know that? So I think being real with people is also something that I mean, clarity is kind. Yeah, and I think it's kindness, you know, being clear, but also loving in that so so and then you can go deeper and deeper and carve out you know, you're gonna you can dig for that goal, you know, and them, at least I would. I would rather have somebody who was more like a straight shooter and telling me hey, PJ, you got to, you got to get this together. Yeah. Because you'll become better. I would work on that. Yeah. So but but we know usually we know, when people are, what kind of position they come from when they help us or coach us or just kind of bring out the best in me.
David Mckeown 5:30
Yeah. And that's the key really is
Nathan Benger 5:32
Yeah, yeah. When just thinking about obviously coaching, mentoring, you mentioned the, you know, Auricchio, say, ask questions. And then PJ, you're like, I want a straight shooter. You know, you use the example of the long jump like 30 centimetres or whatever. How do you how do you get to a place?
David Mckeown 5:50
That's not very long? No, no, exactly.
Nathan Benger 5:55
But how do you? How do you get to that, that place where you understand this is the kind of person that I'm leading, I'm coaching or mentoring, this is a person who wants me just to say it as it is. Or this is a person who wants me to, you know, work in a different way?
PJ 6:13
Well, first of all, I don't do counselling too much. So So Rick is much better at that than me. But because I'm, I'm more of the kind of admitted, quit it, forget it type of guy, and move on. And I have a very bad memory. So I'm very happy for me. Actually happy with people, because I don't remember what's been going on. So so I kind of move on very quickly. But, but I think eventually, you'll find that and like minded people that kind of attract each other. So if there's somebody that needs another type of mentoring in our team, you know, they usually go to Rica, or one of my campus pastors or, or so on, which are, they're better than on that, and I am. But I also think that there are levels of leadership where they don't have the time to kind of mess around. So they need Yeah, a little more strict. I was out having a having a walk a couple of years ago with, with some pastors, and they find mentioned their names. And I wouldn't do that everybody would know, on what kind of level it was. And one of them were mentoring a younger guy. And he said, when we were walking to towards a restaurant, he said, What was that about? And the younger guy said, Well, I don't really know what you mean, you know, I said, the older guy. And the younger guy immediately said, I'm so sorry, sir. It won't happen again. And it was just it was just a cultural thing in the conversation we had at a roundtable. Wow. And he picked it up immediately. And, and he, he approached it direct. And the younger guy tried to kind of cover easiest way to cover it, but but then he just understood this is not the game we're playing here. Yeah. And he kind of shifted, and the only guy the follow up was this. Oh, so did you watch the game yesterday? Yeah. So he didn't kind of cling on to something, just rubbing it in, and so on. And I think if we can do that, you know, be a little more, you know, direct, but then also a little more easy. This is not a big deal. No, but but let's move on. And don't we're not there to blame or shame each other right there to kind of this champions, you know,
Ulrica Stenstrand 8:49
but you asked you a question. And another way it could be people go through things. And I also right now actually studying some psychology to be even a better Pastor. And it's interesting to see if some, someone really needs help, they can meet me or some other in our pastoral team, and say, Hey, let's, and I've learned so much in this ordinary psychology, education that I been giving that you have to have framework, okay, we're gonna see each other for maybe five times, at the most 10 times, it's 45 minutes every time. It's not like, you can text me in the middle of the night, and I'll be there. It's a framework for I'm gonna last longer than 57. And so are you. And also it's like, you have to tell me, what do you want me to help you with? Yeah. So can you see it now, you know, tries to help us work. Now. I can see I can read your mind. I can, but and if it's too hard, I'm giving you away to other people. How are you?
PJ 9:52
I think sometimes we over spiritualize things. That's why everything just becomes so fluffy. be round. Yeah. And, and and people. The result is that people stay in their Yeah. issue or in the problem instead of moving on. And, and we want to help people move on. Yeah, but I was preaching I think last last week and on the topic of Thomas, you know, everybody's calling him the doubter, you know, of course, but Scripture doesn't do that. And not even Jesus did it. No, but somebody put that label on him. Yeah. And but nobody put the label on Peter as Peter the denier. Now we're gonna read about the denier. And now he's the rock.
Nathan Benger 10:44
Yeah.
PJ 10:46
So so I want people to come out of that type of labelling. You know, there's more to us. And there's more more leadership in us than we think. And there's more good qualities than we think. And, and we're digging for gold.
David Mckeown 11:03
Yeah, definitely. And people have got it in them. And I think just picking up some of the stuff you've said, Oh, Reagan, I mean, I've done some trainings regarding coaching, leadership coaching,
Nathan Benger 11:13
shameless plug. Dave offers coaching people
David Mckeown 11:18
how to coach, sign up to sign up today. Suppose Let's go. But there is something about creating a container or a conversation. Like when leaders are having conversations with people to try and train them and develop them. It's about setting those boundaries. Yeah, one of the things you've said there are PJ's are by clear, you know, clear is kind unclear is unkind. Brian quote. But I think there's something powerful in just having that container. Yeah. And that's where the transformation takes place to clear with people. Hey, we've got a good idea together. What do you what do you want to do? Yeah, there's something powerful about that, and leadership development as well. And there's a plug, but it's a good plug. Because what a great thing is to help people just get those new insights. Yeah,
Nathan Benger 12:05
ya know, and just thinking on Church and thinking on leading people and leading other people, what do you guys do in terms of regards for training and the rent, leasing and developing people into leadership positions, your multi Campus Church, campus pastors? So how does that look?
PJ 12:24
Well, that is an interesting topic, you know, because I think I'm a firm believer in on the job training. So I think no, because that means that you will, you need to expect problems. And that is a way I mean, it is the way Jesus combined on the job training and his vocational, more classroom type of setting. Yeah. This model. Yeah, I love that model. Yeah. And so it's the classic thing, I would say that you have leadership gatherings, you know, regular leadership gatherings, you work on leadership culture. Probably one of the things we do you get to play book for each position in Church. So it's easy to come in, but also easy to understand what you're supposed to do. And then some kind of structure where, where you where you are, you have your upline leader, so you know, where to expect some kind of feedback. And then one of the things we do right now is that we're trying to form some kind of, you could say, emerging leader type of setting, and put a little extra effort into that. Yeah, and I would like to see that happen. I'll see. Maybe do that every quarter. Put some great speakers in and do all the classic stuff, you know, like know that here are 10 points on Yeah, and then have a conversation on it. Yeah. Because I think that is also something that is really needed when you look at Gen Y or whatever we call them nowadays, you know, that it's if they are I mean, they're, they're much I we spoken early on this authenticity, you know, they're much for authenticity and once yours to be authentic, and Church to be more like the boutique type of Church, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm maybe more connected with the early generations that big is beautiful, and I'll come on let's take the word for Christ, you know, and it's about me in the group settings and still they struggle with image everything needs to be culturally relevant in a way that you fit in. And the breakdowns they have and the and the, the mess they have with, you know, the inner person struggling, doesn't really commute with that. I mean, for me, it doesn't really compute with the thing that you know, you want the authenticity and the small and the relational and All that, you know, really close, but still, you're so uncertain. Because it's all about image. And for me, you know, I think it is a dysfunctional that connection is not good. I think we need to find ways. Okay, let's be honest here. Let's be real. Let but but but we have also a historical Church that has come up with some great things that actually work. It's been working for 2000 years. And let's let's stick to those kind of clear basic values because values, they frame your future what we value create something in the future if we honour that, that is what we get. So so we want to help people. And I think the strategy is coming back to a setting where we can have a conversation more than ever.
David Mckeown 16:05
All right, good. Yeah, really good. I've been thinking through this question. And we think about sort of longevity and leadership. When is a good time? Do you think for leaders to be thinking about transition? Now? We don't want to put you on the spot or anything like that? You know, obviously, you're 57. Yeah. You know, 57 years young? Yeah, let's put that in there. Ya know, my best just to help them? Because I think a lot of churches have struggled to transition. Yes. What would you say into that?
PJ 16:38
In our edge? Your edge? In our
David Mckeown 16:42
apps? That's your answer that
PJ 16:43
you should absolutely think about it when you're in your late 50s. Yeah, yeah. And try to get some kind of plan up, at least in your like, your, your mental plan. Yeah, some kind of in your mind, you know, where you're kind of, so the next 10 Because in 10 years, you're closing, instead of closing 60 You're closing 70. And you have to have that set them. Yeah, yeah. And maybe you have even transition them. Yeah. Okay. And your as we are founding pastors, maybe we have transitioned, but we're still on sometimes do some of the stuff that we you know, so okay, what is that a third of the time? Okay, let's say that we're gonna go parallel for some time. Which means that, okay, if I take these 10 years, say, 1/3 of the time is for me now to find out the solution, or for us to kind of find out what's gonna be Yeah. And then present that in a way that is acceptable. And, and, and people can, can embrace. And then you go parallel for a while, and then you do the last third somehow. And then after that, post, 70, or whatever, you can do whatever you want. And afterglow when you I mean, he's there are some important I think, factors to it. Health. Energy. Yeah. Are you are you excited about it? Well, they could also be new challenges. Yeah. They could also be new ventures. Yeah, some people they've done their greatest things post 70. Yeah.
Ulrica Stenstrand 18:29
But we do talk a lot about it. So we have a plan, so to speak. But as you we all know, life can change. But we have a plan as it is now. But you never know in five years, so it can change tomorrow. And we even speak about the I mean, if something happens to us. You never know what life yeah, so we will just survive and thrive anyway. Blowing away if we will find a way we will find a way. So we do have like a plan as life is now and then we'll see how life isn't 10 years. Yeah. So
PJ 19:06
I also feel that you know, there are there are many who kind of plan in a way that is for them to bail out. I don't like that. Because I'm you know, you but you got to stay hungry. Yeah. And if you don't if you're not hungry, for more, you maybe you need to have a bit of a conversation on that to what can you change that breeds that energy? But there is a fact that this body has some mileage on it. And it's not a new new body. Eventually I will get one Yeah, but but it has some mileage on it and he can only do so much compared to when I was 2025. But my intellect is maybe on its prime. Yeah, that's the key and and my my maturity and my my wisdom is probably He can, and could even keep on doing that, as long as, as I'm intellectually saying,
David Mckeown 20:07
vintage vintage.
Ulrica Stenstrand 20:10
Yeah, secondhand. But But that's why I feel like when you're in our age, like, you want to help people thrive in ministry, how can we help you? Yeah, you're going through something in your marriage with your kids or in Church with work, whatever, Hey, give us a call. And we can help you. That's why I want to do even more. And if I have the feeling now, I think I'm going to have that feeling even more than 10 years. I don't want to say thank you. And goodbye, i My father is still alive. He's been a Church. He's 91. He's been saved for more than 70 years in the same Church. He's been he was an elder for 54 years. He was a Sunday school teacher for 42 years. And is I want to be like him. It's like, what is that generation? Now? I want to be like that. And
PJ 21:04
I'm also a firm believer in like, reverse mentors. You know, if they're like our age, you need those guys who are 2030. Yeah. Okay, what's going on right now? Yeah. Have I misinterpreted? You know, what's going on right now, because he can get some
David Mckeown 21:19
of my jokes are funny. I mean,
PJ 21:23
not only the dad, the granddad jokes now.
Ulrica Stenstrand 21:26
But sometimes we if we had our youth group in our house, actually a few weeks ago, yeah. And if you understand what I'm saying, it's like our titles and our age is like, scare them a little bit. It's like, I can't, you know, talk in a way, like, I'm the same enough with a 15 year old, it's just, our kids are 34 or 32. It's like, doesn't happen, I can be nice. But we can't collect you can't,
PJ 21:50
like, you know, Sunday in Church, you know, and then the sound is bad or something like that, then you just go down and you see a guy who's 16 years old is running the PA system. And I mean, the gap is too big. So you got it. You got to learn how to to run with your your co workers more.
David Mckeown 22:08
Yeah, it's good to learn. That's good.
PJ 22:11
No, it's not that he doesn't respect you. Or it's not that I don't respect him. It's just that it's, it just gets a little awkward around so so I mean, my words are mostly nowadays. Good work. Yeah. And then I go somewhere else. You kill the Let's kill the sound engineer and then Billy for resurrection life tomorrow.
David Mckeown 22:42
That's a great insight. That's a great point. Because it is understanding.
Ulrica Stenstrand 22:46
Yeah. Yeah.
David Mckeown 22:49
And on, you know, working out what they need to do. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 22:53
and I were talking about transition. And we're thinking, you know, when transition, you're leaving Church now, you know, but I guess throughout life, there are lots of transitions. In terms of what you're explaining, there's a transition from I was leading in my 30s. to Now I'm leaving in my 50s. There's a transition between that is a transition from I'm leading. It's just one thesis one Church to I'm leading campuses now. And it's it's a different transition, and you go to different levels. And I guess, people have to understand that.
PJ 23:26
There is a bit of a challenge with you know, this thing about age because I still love hanging out with teenagers. I absolutely love the conversations. I love the dynamics of it. But some things as past, you know, and it's it's, but I do love it. I mean, there's nothing more powerful than to see like a 17 year old. Just start believing. Start going for it. Yeah, I think it can rock the world. No, of course, no. Look at a family. If somebody you know, has been living the wildlife, you know, and suddenly comes home. He's got transformed. Yeah, by Christ. You know, it's just like, the whole family is changed. Yeah, dynamics is so beautiful. So, so we just love you sound engineers, I love
David Mckeown 24:21
those. And later, a couple
Ulrica Stenstrand 24:22
of months ago, we had a baptismal with a young man and maybe 17 or 18. And he got really, you know, really saved. And then you said, you well, you know, and his father came along, and he said, Well, you know, a year ago, this young teenager, the son of mine, he was on drugs. And it's like, you can cry. Yeah, it's been such a big change, of course, and he has a testimony for himself, and now he's in school. I know he's out with friends sometimes even now like three o'clock in the morning, but now I know who he is. He comes home sober. And I mean And, you know, I understand it's like, wow. And yeah, that is, you know, being the best part of being a Pastor.
David Mckeown 25:08
Beautiful. Yeah. So the good bits, isn't it? Yeah.
PJ 25:13
I want to go to Bible. I want to become like you. Yeah. What's going on?
David Mckeown 25:21
Great, great stuff. Adelaide has been brilliant to have you guys on the show. We've made you cry. But yeah, it's been brilliant to have you just think of the long haul. And we I guess we want to honour you guys as well, for the journey you've been on. Thank you for all the hours you've put in conversations you've had behind the scenes that no one knows about. You know, there's something about just celebrating and cheering you on as well. But to finish on a more upbeat call, we're not left crying. Yeah, we've got a couple quick questions. Yeah. Just for a bit of fun. Yeah, go for
Nathan Benger 25:58
the first one. What are you most excited about at the moment?
PJ 26:01
Well, it's we're at IKON Church now. And we're going to do the weekend here in a conference this week. Yeah. Ground level conference. I'm super excited. Yeah,
Ulrica Stenstrand 26:10
I agree. I had. So it's such an honour to be here and talking to you guys. Thank you for having us.
David Mckeown 26:16
Okay, next one. What are you most challenged about at the
PJ 26:23
moment? Most challenged?
David Mckeown 26:25
I can't call for it. No. It's challenging
Ulrica Stenstrand 26:29
right now.
PJ 26:30
I think, well, if you're a real you know, it's to kind of train more leaders.
Nathan Benger 26:37
Yeah. Yeah.
PJ 26:38
It's a big challenge. Right? Yeah. So So we're, we're, we're in the middle of a real conversation,
Nathan Benger 26:44
right? Like, I'm awesome. We're gonna ask for to your top two book recommendations and why but here's what we're going to do. We're going to want each one each and why and when we're not we're not accepting the Bible. No, we love the Bible. But yeah, we're taking that for granted.
Ulrica Stenstrand 27:04
I read a really good book just a few years ago, if you're going through some hard stuff with people it's called forgiving what you can't forget. And I don't know right now the author, I don't remember it because, you know, but the title is forgiving what you can't forget. And it's really hard to find the book. So if you get a copy by it it's gold in there and the woman it's a woman eroded and she really knows what she's been talking about. So forgiving. What you can't forget. Yeah.
PJ 27:37
Well, I put on my on my reading list now the the story of the Israeli prime minister is called Bibi, okay, and I've heard it's gonna be great. So so maybe understanding something right now what's going on down there in Israel? And, and so, I mean, it's a fighter type of personality. So no matter if you like him or not, I'm gonna read that one.
David Mckeown 28:05
Okay. Something about keep going down. And our final question, changing it up a little bit. What's your favourite food? And I was gonna say why but that's not really a question. What's your fear?
Ulrica Stenstrand 28:15
I would say fish. Time. A very good fish smoked salmon. Smoked salmon was good.
David Mckeown 28:25
Little bit of rye Bran. Yeah.
Ulrica Stenstrand 28:27
But that's my
PJ 28:28
well I gotta say good porterhouse steak. The good steak and I were talking rare potatoes gravy. Right?
Nathan Benger 28:42
I think we should finish Yeah, we are. We are finishing PJ Noriko big THANK
Ulrica Stenstrand 28:51
YOU are the best podcast in the world. It's been so
Nathan Benger 28:54
great to have you on the church explained podcast and I just want to thank everyone for listening. And remember, wherever you are consuming this content, then share subscribe, share it with someone you know that it will bless them as well. And also don't forget you can head over to IKON dot Church for slash open for a load of free resources for yourself as a leader but also for your Church. But we look forward to seeing you next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
