CEP SEASON THREE EP: 18 - WITH GUESTS PJ & ULRICA STENSTRAND
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
In this podcast, we explore with PJ and Ulrica, a couple who have been in leadership for over 30 years. They discussed qualities leaders need to last the long haul, including prioritising calling over comfort, finding their rhythm, and not comparing themselves to others.
PJ and Ulrica also share around their hobbies, love for adventure, and the importance of a good marriage. They emphasised the need to have fun and not take life too seriously while remaining focused on their calling to serve in ministry.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hey, welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. We're in for a great show today.
Nathan Benger 0:10
And we are we are we're joined by PJ and all Rica. And let me just tell you a little bit about PJ and oh rica Come on. PJ is pair. Johan Stenstrom is right, or as most people in the world call him Pastor PJ and he is the Pastor of lifecenter Church, Sweden, Pastor PJ group and a pastor's family and after his university studies in economics and Bible school, I never knew those went together. He set off into ministry pastoring always with an entrepreneurial passion for growing the Church and reaching the last Pastor Pj is an encourager with a contagious personality. He is the author of the book comeback and he's widely known as a Pastor of pastors. But also we're joined by Pastor or recap has worked within the news and media industry for more than 25 years and now and is now also the owner of Sailor talk, a counselling and consulting resource for leaders in various spheres of life PJ Norica, planted life centred Church and vaster us. Yeah, close to stock, the capital of Sweden, life centre Church is now a multi Campus Church reaching the heartland of that nation, always young at heart and passionate about Church planting PJ and all Rica. I've been a driving force for training and releasing emerging leaders and planting churches work worldwide. They have two children and two grandchildren. Yeah, wow.
Ulrica Stenstrand 1:44
Well done pretty well. We can leave
PJ 1:50
quite a short bio.
Nathan Benger 1:51
Yes, very sure.
David Mckeown 1:53
So we shouldn't have a few things to talk about today. Hopefully, there's one or two things in there. And actually, we've had another Swedish guest on our show before, haven't we? Yeah. Simon. show before. Yeah. And he's doing pretty well. And he has his own podcast as well. Yep. But like, we don't want to say anything, but it's not as good as Oh, no, no competition or anything. But like, we'll just put it out there. Simon, if you're listening, we are still cheering.
PJ 2:19
Ever been any competition in the Christian world. But the fact I think there's somewhere that's written that somebody came first to the tomb.
David Mckeown 2:30
Exactly. That's around the hand. Yeah, they're first got their competition to help me compensating for the disciple Jesus loved. So there is some competition. Always unrest, something in the back actually got fever. Some people are not. Well, that's another conversation. That one. Listen, welcome to the show today. Thank you. Have you flown into England? And you're here for a conference, but we've managed to put this in the deal. Yeah, a brilliant, great conversation today. So come on. We've got a little bit about your bio there. But why don't you share us a little bit more about like your faith journey ministry a little bit more about your background. If you're able to do that a rigger? We're gonna come to you first.
Ulrica Stenstrand 3:12
Yep. Ladies first. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. It's an honour for us to be here. So I hope my English is okay. Yeah, it's a little bit of English accent. Yeah, we see when we talk. So PJ and on Rekha, just a little bit, maybe about our family. And we are actually born the same year, the same month, and just today support two days. We've been together since we were 15. Not for you. Crazy, but it was a perfect journey for us. And I can say that we, you know, I have said that a long time. But He's the eldest of seven. Grew up in a pastor's home isn't been moving around all Sweden. And I'm the youngest of three. And I never moved before we met and got married. So it was good for us to have a few years. So we were 15. We were on two parallel classes in school. We had math, German, French science together for four years. And we went his father was my Pastor for seven, eight years, something like that. And then we got married when we were 20. So when I say we were we are the same age, it sounds schizophrenic, but we are.
Ulrica Stenstrand 4:32
And when we got married, he was the youth Pastor in my old hometown, my old home Church where I grew up. And then we moved the hereafter to new city. And that was a big step for me when I was a young pastor's wife. And then I started to work in the newspaper world, so to speak, and he was studying economics and working as a youth Pastor in this new city, and that we had kids Our kids are born 89. And it Roberta Victoria 34 and 32 today, and I was working and in Church or was in Church, I'm going to speak about that in the conference. cliffhanger. And 93 was a big year for us, because we had a Pastor that we've been working together with, for like, maybe 10 years. And he was moved to the move to that city that we still are in is called Westeros and 92. And then he asked us to actually sell it to PJ PJ, I want you to move with me and come to the city of Westeros. And I said, Hey, what about me and the kids? So we moved to the city of Westeros 1993. And I thought with all my heart that I don't want to live here more than maximum two years is going to be like a season of mission. Like some people go to Africa, I go to Westeros first. But here we are 30 years later, and that's another conference, another story by the sea. Yeah, I was very shy. And he was can't spell the word shy. So that's also a good mix. And it's been a journey of leadership for me to take my place. And I'm also going to speak more more on the conference about that. But yeah, I've been working in the media world for 25 years, we've been buying selling houses, renovating houses or handyman adventure in many ways. So we've been married for 37 years this summer. We've been together for 42 years. And now we're empty nesters with two grandkids and life is better than ever. Okay. Well, something to look forward to. Yeah,
Nathan Benger 6:49
I've got three boys at home. Yeah. And it is a few years till will be empty nesters.
David Mckeown 6:56
My boys 14 So I'm kind of on the
PJ 7:01
other hand, you know, it's not really an empty house, you know?
Ulrica Stenstrand 7:05
You think it's gonna be empty. But yeah,
David Mckeown 7:08
it's great to hear about that. And just hear a little bit about your story and coming through there. And and of course, we do want to focus today on this idea of lasting and leadership being enough for the long haul. And you guys already described being in leadership for the long haul. I wonder, PJ a little bit more about you. You've obviously grown up pastor's family. You know, tell us a little bit more about your faith journey. And what what what was the sort of the significant Turner for you to say, I'm going to go into ministry? Well, because not not all pastors kids do
PJ 7:42
know, definitely. Well, I'm, I'm the oldest of seven. So I got five, we're five brothers and two sisters. And about half of them would, I would say are in Church now. I would say most of them have faith. I think all of them have at least know when when things hit the fan, you know, yeah, call or text message pray for me. Yeah, just got one this morning about the father of one of their their spouses, you know, so my Faith Journeys is probably typical. Well, everything is individual and of course, unique for each person. But But I grew up in Church, and I was turning 15. And that summer, just two months before I was at a youth camp and, and experienced what you would say my calling, and we just like to you regular youth night, you know, in a youth camp, and I experienced that God just spoke to me, you know, somebody preached, I can't remember who I think I know, but I can't really remember so much about, you know, all these things surrounding. But the fact that I had a personal encounter with God, and he called me and I knew instantly, it was about the Church, that I should be a part of something, something about pastoring and leading and serving and building. So that's, that's what I've been doing all along this journey. And, and no matter if I was studying at the university, or I was a part of the youth group or leading a youth ministry or just been serving the Church, and I always enjoyed it, you know, just getting my hands dirty and get into the, the regular stuff. Yeah. And always with an idea that Church can become greater, bigger, more influential alliances, touch lives. Yeah. And with that said, you know, the last thing idea of doing Church is I think just finding your it's like you know, you I think you know what, if I speak to young leaders today, I would say that you do Do as much as you can. Yeah, Scripture is very clear that it says that and I think it's somehow it's a bit in a contradiction to what our age is doing. Scripture says that is it's very useful, and it's good for a man, a young man to carry him burden in his younger years. I mean, we're training, we're failing, we're understanding, we're dissecting ourselves and life. And finally, you come to an understanding that maybe this is the place God has placed me. This is where he wants me and what he wants me to do. Yeah, but it's great to be diverse. And, and, and I think, you know, when you find that idea, somewhere, maybe in your early 30s, or mid 30s, no, this is it. Yeah. You made your sweet spot, your sweet spot. I mean, you've been, you've been playing all over the field, you know, for a long time, then. Yeah. But then suddenly, you know, you realise that maybe this is, this is where I make the most difference, you know, this is a place where I can have a significant role to play, then then you just gotta go for it, you know, and keep on doing it. So usually, when people interview me, everything goes back to that. That moment of time. 15 year old, just deciding something and just never looked back. Yeah. So so. But I go back to that moment. Even now as a 57 year old. Young man. Yeah.
David Mckeown 11:37
Yeah, yeah. 57 years young. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly.
Nathan Benger 11:41
No, no, I think I think that's great. One of the questions we do love to ask, and I think it's great that both leader on this is the question, what do you do for fun? Because sometimes in ministry, everything's like, focused, but actually, there's something you know about having fun, and even doing that together as a married couple. So what do you guys do for fun?
PJ 12:03
What do we do for fun, you can start we travel for fun, you know, vacation for fun, and we do that and and and then I have a lot of hobbies. And we have like a saying if there's a new hobby coming in some old is gonna get out. But I've always loved the adventurous thing. I'm golfer I play golf, so I love sports. But then I love fishing, hunting. I'm, I'm I love hunting and, and little acts on the extreme side, like, you know,
David Mckeown 12:32
okay, yeah, sounds a bit dangerous, but
PJ 12:35
like Bear hunting, or hunting reindeer is not that dangerous, but nice deep. So I've been to like Alaska or Siberia.
Nathan Benger 12:49
I'm just I'm just hoping there's no parents listen to this. And the kids in the back. Sorry, kids. Horrified. Reindeer they just leave.
David Mckeown 13:00
It is lifestyle. I
PJ 13:03
know. It's like eco friendly thing. You know, it's like you know you exactly most guys who have fish and hungry. I mean, they're super naturalist. You know, they love nature. They want it to be taken care of. So yeah, but But um, and I love to you know, I do I do a lot of rifle shooting and reloading things, you know, ballistic things that you know, tie my own fishing flies. No. Wow.
David Mckeown 13:29
So when you're doing all that, what do you do? That's your hobby. The fact he's gone? Yeah.
Ulrica Stenstrand 13:40
The house? Yeah. I don't have like that. Exactly. But I do read a lot. And I do write a lot, because that's been my job as well. So I still do that. But it's not the same thing. But I'm more enjoy, like peace and quiet and enjoy my grandkids. Yeah. Social. Yeah. Yeah. I am sorry, Susan.
David Mckeown 14:01
Yeah, very good. Yeah. Great. Great. Great to find out about those things. I know you've mentioned ready you've been in leadership for a long time you say 35 years around there. We want to find out dig in a little bit today and find out like thinking of leaders, what are the qualities? Leaders need to last the long haul? But what would you share the key things they just need to be thinking about?
PJ 14:26
Well, I think one of them is to understand that your calling is more important than comfort. Nice, because I think being called by God I mean we're of course we want to enjoy life as anybody else. And I think this thing about you know, hobbies when you I mean we joke about it, but when we get one said there no it's better for a man to have a good hobby than messing around with something else. Something he shouldn't do, you know, so I think there There's always a need for something to just kind of that is something different than just the everyday. I mean, you need to rewind, you need to just find, you know, space sometimes to rethink and reevaluate and reinvent yourself and just have for the, for the sake of fun, just just recharge. Yeah, but but this thing about about your calling and comfort, I think that we are living in an age where if we look back in history, you know, those guys that we are very grateful for and thankful for in Europe that that made Europe better, you know, during the Second World War and gave the ultimate sacrifice, they are called the greatest generation ever lived. And then, as kids and grandkids and great grandkids, I mean, what do we what have we achieved, you know, and, and, and I understand that in every person, there is this, there are these qualities, but society, society sometimes today, they have a tendency to it has a tendency to kind of diminish that. And because there's greatness in everybody, but this thing about comfort is something that is really challenging. What is greatness in us? So yeah, calling is more important than comfort? What do you say about that? No, I agree. Yeah. So I think if you know that, you know, yeah. It's also a question of if God has called you. Scripture is very clear on that. He called you, you will also sustain you over time. Yeah. And it's ultimately he he's the one who's actually going to help you finish this race.
Nathan Benger 16:52
I wonder Oh, Rico, because you mentioned it earlier that you said when you went to Vassar, us, yeah. Well, yeah. You were like, two years. Yeah, that's it. Now it's 30 years. And obviously, you've been there with that first mentality of I don't want to be here long. But you have been there long. What What's kept you there that shift, and what changed in your mentality in that to mean that, you know, what, we're here for the long haul in this place.
Ulrica Stenstrand 17:26
I would say it's my own calling as well, to find my own place. I used to say that I'm accustomed to Moses in the Bible. Because I've been through when I was younger, not now. But for many years I was struggling with, I can't say anything. Who am I, I was, you know, happy to stand, you know, the shadow in the background. But then I found my place. And I, I knew that I had and everybody has a voice. Everyone is needed. And I'm needed, and having people around me that cheer me on, and we're always cheering each other on. And that's also a very, very important, not just a thing, but basic that you have a good marriage along the way. If our marriage doesn't work, it's not fun to lead a Church or to lead a family or to do anything, and to be an example. And I could see that when I was working in the newspaper role, but even now, to help people flourish in their marriage, and because every everything starts here, everything starts at home. And you can't be everything for everyone, but to find my own. I've been laughing a lot. And it's like, I'm still 14 And you know, laughing little things and big things. Like a laugh when I'm allowed to. And when I'm not allowed to. Yeah. And I think of me this morning, I did. Yeah, I did. He did something funny. And it's enough, you know, my life for a half an hour or so. But that's also a very healthy thing for me. My mother was the same. She laughed until she died in a way and that's also don't take life so serious. Yeah, it's like it's hard anyway. to So do it. Do it in a you know, like spirit. You say that? Yeah. And don't be so deep when you enter a room, especially when you're your Christian. Jesus lives in my heart. And he's not a boring person. It's the best medicine to the world. And he lives in me. It's gonna be light when I enter a room. If it's dark and heavy. Here comes a week. She's a Pastor, we can't laugh anymore. No, it's like, here. Yeah, Nathan, and, you know, yeah, he's Jesus lives in him and and that's the personality. I think it's not too heavy. And also too, just don't be too difficult. Don't make life too difficult and
PJ 19:56
it's kind of the thing that tried to travel light you Yeah, I mean, we all carry burdens. But I mean that it is a healthy exercise to leave your burdens. So we can travel as light as possible. Yeah. And,
Ulrica Stenstrand 20:15
and don't compare yourself with anyone else. I've never done that. Like, not not so much now, maybe after COVID. But, you know, how many people do you have in your Church? How many people? Did you have a gathering for women? Well, I don't know if it's 10. It's 10. If it's 10,000, it's 10,000. It's, every one is unique and welcome. I never, but you can be inspired by other people. That's another thing. Yeah, that's another thing, but I'm not liking the numbers, or it's not a competition for me. You know?
David Mckeown 20:46
Yeah. I think that's some great advice. Really, isn't it for people listening? Because I think a lot of people can't compare themselves. Yeah, compare other churches compare their lives. I'd like just to dig in a little bit further of a con. Yeah. In regard to one of the things you've said there was a Ryan, this idea that as you've been growing in life and journeying and life and ministry, yeah, it took you a while that I guess to find your use the word rhythm or find your your sweet spot? Yeah. How long did it take for that to happen?
Ulrica Stenstrand 21:21
Probably quite long time, maybe 10 years? 10 years? Yeah. Before when we were started, like,
PJ 21:28
Well, I think the background is that we grew up, you know, like, classic evangelical Pentecostal types Church, you know, the Pastor was the Pastor and the family was somewhere in some background. And so that was the husband and the wife was somewhere else. And when we planted lives in 23 years ago, it was the year 2000. We've seen a few are, you know, role models, that there was another type of Church being built, that husband and wife they were serving together? And even in Church, you know, the question about female and women and leadership. And so we just, we just tore that out somehow, and then just, it's got to be shift. You know, we were watching a clip the other day that said, I think it was RW Schambach, that was preaching thing in the 80s and said, Okay, if if a female were able to carry the word for nine months, yeah, and giving birth to the Word, Jesus, well, why shouldn't she be able to share the word? Yeah. And that was the kind of process that we went through. And so when we plan to live Saturday, you know, we just decided, hey, all positions are open. Yeah. But let's also, let's also support each other in a way where we can see young leadership, older leadership, female, marry all nations, you know, there's no, there's no limitations on that. But we will go with a gift like that. And, and I think that was a bit of a shift for for Eureka that, say, Hey, you take on your own connect group, you study the women's ministry in a different way, and you speak what you have on your heart. And don't compare that way of speaking with some somebody else. And so be comfortable in your own skin. But it took a while. Yeah.
Ulrica Stenstrand 23:13
But for example, what I did, no one else has to do the same that I did, for it was still do. Because I've been interviewing people for such a long time. I still do that when we have our women's gathering, for example, when we have like a famous guest or something. I always start with Hey, let me ask you a few questions. I love that. Sometimes it's been the whole, like, if you have a sisterhood event, it's been the interview. That is the main thing. That's my sweet spot. Yeah. And you have to find what's your sweet spot? It's not the same. No, but I think that what I found us, I'm good at this. Hey,
David Mckeown 23:52
we should turn the tables
PJ 23:58
be able to say, actually good. Let me run with
Ulrica Stenstrand 24:01
the confidence. And be curious actually ask a lot of question is good for you. Good education. Hey, where are we from? Tell me about your family. What do you do? I grew up and a family Christian. And you'll find I found out a lot about Paul on the way here. Yeah. Doesn't know that. But you know, between the lines, you can
David Mckeown 24:24
keep that for, you know for about a blackmailer?
Ulrica Stenstrand 24:28
Yeah, but you know what I mean? Absolutely. And
David Mckeown 24:30
I think like thinking 23 years ago to run your Church that way would have been a bit of a rebel. Yeah. Especially like without being funny in certain parts of Europe. Yeah, he traced and Pentecostalism was much more strict doesn't really do what you guys did 23 years ago was was brave, really so so well done on that. Thank you for paving the way for lots of people who have come off to you and I guess that's the thing about lasting leadership, isn't it? Yeah.
Nathan Benger 24:57
Yeah. And just thinking around that. Obviously, we're talking About the long leadership lasting leadership, what are some of the, like common pitfalls that leaders have to avoid to last the long haul?
PJ 25:10
Well, I probably the classics, you know, girls, Glory gold. I mean this thing about No, I think I believe in holiness. But I also believe that everybody struggles, yeah. So finding a good mentor or good conversation partner somehow that you can deal some of this stuff with. I think it's very important to do that. And also keep the honesty, you know, so, for me, being a Pastor, Church and Sundays and leadership has, for me, been a key element, I would think in my, in me maturing as a leader and also me shaping up. I mean, I have that type of respect for God that, you know, if things are messed up, and I'm supposed to get on the platform. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't really fit. Well. Yeah. So I, you know, even in our marriage, you know, when we had some struggles or in a lousy debate on something, I need to come clean. Yeah, for me, it's important. And and to choose that type of lifestyle where you're, you're finding some kind of checkpoints where you're okay, regarding money, finances? Do I tie the two? Do I Do I have a generous life? How is my relationship with other people? Do I share the testimony? Or do I just tell everybody else to share their testimony or so just being the I think the the generation of today, they would probably pinpoint authenticity? And say, this is what we want? We want authenticity. Yeah. And it's something that is for real. Yeah. And if we do that, I think it's easier. But we're probably going back to the same challenges as Adam and Eve. Did you know when they send you know, they're trying to cover up? Yeah. And people who cover up cover up no matter if they're past or a president or a? Whoever they are? Yeah, eventually it will come? Come out. You know, so
Ulrica Stenstrand 27:22
yeah, and get help if you need it. Yeah. It's not a weakness to say, hey, we need help. Right? If we're struggling with OKRs, or in the Church, or if a leader next step,
PJ 27:32
but I think that, you know, my, my spirituality is my responsibility. Yeah. And, and that it is, if you have a leadership position is something important. It's like, you are the one making the difference. So So, I'm not the only guy, but at least I need to take responsibility for what God has given me. Yeah. And if I do that, and also serve a God that I know is holy, I can do whatever, I cannot just put my gift away. But I also need to protect my gift. Yeah. And, and I think that is has really something to do with Longjing. Don't stain for what Yeah, yeah. And, and, and keep at it, and, of course, over and over again, you know, preserve that by you know, you're in the word and you're Yeah, you're praying and you're very good.
David Mckeown 28:35
And I was thinking a couple of things that you've mentioned there. I mean, obviously, you've talked about this idea of authenticity, you know, sort of like today's generation looking for authenticity, but we also need what you've described as those checkpoints. Yeah. Because you can have authenticity, but without checkpoints. It just becomes a free for all. Yeah, yeah. So you've mentioned some of the checkpoints are thinking of finance. Yeah. Thinking of, I guess you're calling Yeah, and how you're before God, what are the checkpoints? Do you think I mean, between your rigour What do you think? What are the checkpoints? Do leaders need to have
Ulrica Stenstrand 29:09
it's the family how's your family? And it's also very it's it's a good for a mother or a father? To have the question. Are you kids? I remember your son was named Oh, and it's good to hear you remember my children or my grandkids don't be too big that your ignore you know, the people around you if they celebrate the little things when someone has a
PJ 29:35
family life. Celebrate. So of course when we come here, we want to know about you. Yeah, about your three boys and what do they do? And I think that that authentic type of living Yeah, it's something that we cherish, you know, and we believe that Church can be huge and big and celebrate I love big things. Now. Love. I mean, I love being in a huge concert, you know, arena thing, but I love that club gig too. Yeah. So so so I think that is Christianity. Yeah, you know, likes acts to, you know, 42. And on you know, it's just, it's big churches Smoocher, you know, so it's, it's both authentic. But we can also have that experience of something bigger and then being part of something bigger. And that could also be one of those things about lasting for a long time if we only live in the small if we only see the small. How big is our God? Yeah. He loved the world. Yeah, it didn't only love my straight, but he did not only love the world, but it was also a personal individual. So if we get that to get get can combine those things, you know, it's yeah, it's a perspective, I think on leadership. No, no, really good.
Ulrica Stenstrand 30:56
And I'm collecting stories, I will probably have some stories from this week that we're going to spend here to listen to people, you find out new stories, from the good parts in life and the heart. And when people are when life hits you very hard, because it does, sometimes you hit the wall. And we all if you're 57, we've done that a few times in life. But there's a way on the other side of the wall, to just go down on your knees, pray to God and there is a way we've been there, done that. And you will if you haven't been there, you will be there. But there is a way through the wall and it's Jesus Christ standing on the other side, waiting for you. So just don't give up. Get on your knees. Read your Bible. Every morning is the best. Yeah. Because then everything is sleeping. You know, the demons are not awake, but that's the best and then you know, go to Church. That's the best medicine. If you go through some hard things go to Church, we do Bible prayer. It's the same medicine. Yeah, it was from my
Nathan Benger 31:57
we, we want we want something new don't we want? It's like, Yeah, well, actually, it's the same old principles. Make the big difference. I wonder if you talk a little bit around Church life as well obviously been leading the Church for a long time. And just thinking about this as being leaders how you create a culture of trust and respect that, that encourages that long term and that lasting within that, you know, your Church team within the people around your Church.
PJ 32:31
I think honesty is where where it all comes down, you know, because, you know, we see people grow, we see poor people coming to new positions and so on. And we've seen We've seen people fail. Yeah, we've seen people mess up over the years, too. And maybe one of the, the key elements that you can identify in when things go bad is that people isolate themselves. Yeah. So like, you know, you messed up and you're shamed and, and I think a culture that is respecting also, we're building a culture that has its comeback a comeback culture. Yeah, I wrote a book a couple of years ago called comeback.
Nathan Benger 33:15
It was in your shop is my bio.
PJ 33:20
You wanna if you want to read it in Spanish, you can not an English but but the thing is, I gathered a bunch of combat stories. Yeah. And shared about that. And I think if you can create an environment where it's okay to make a comeback. Yeah. It also creates an environment where people failing forward as they say, Yeah, great. Yeah. So I think that is key for me.
Ulrica Stenstrand 33:44
I agree. He always says, like, come on over to the victory side. And I mean, it's also important Yeah. To, you know, to the marriage again, at what if I'm down or he's down? It's like weightlifting each other. It's not like, oh, did someone hurt you? Oh, poor you. It's like, Come on, think they're bigger than this. Yeah,
PJ 34:03
there's one area where I meditated on a little last year and I've been speaking about it, it's this thing about, you know, when people are hurting, or when things are gone, gone wrong. It's like we are often there with empathy. And and no, it's not I think in the Christian we're not it's not so much like your your bad or, like people not pointing fingers. Maybe they speak behind your back, but they're never telling you that but, but what people really need is not really empathy. I mean, it's one thing I come to a friend is messed up and he I give him empathy. My heart is bleeding for you, brother. I love you, blah, blah, blah. But what they really need is hope. They need hope. Yeah, this can change. We can fix this. Yeah, you got to own up but we can fix this. We can sort this out, you're not dead in the water. We're, there's hope. And I think if you can create that kind of culture that breeds that, like, we would see more people sustaining. Yeah. And because it kind of hits hard, you know, where, where there's pride. Yeah. And pride is always there when people fail. Yeah. So, last thing, the distance has a lot to do with hope. Yeah.
David Mckeown 35:26
And that just come back stories. Yeah.
PJ 35:29
And some of the greatest players, you know, like in soccer and football. I mean, they messed up really, really bad, but we love them, you know, and if they just okay, was really bad, you know, it was wrong. I'm so so sorry. I mean, we take him on, you know, yeah, we love that because we see the gift too.
David Mckeown 35:49
And maybe we need a little bit more of that in the Christian setting as well. Leaders Yeah, because I think sometimes that's not always there. So where people mess up on once they've messed up it's almost like they're out of the game forever. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 36:02
PJ Noriko big THANK
Ulrica Stenstrand 36:05
YOU are the best podcast in the world has been
Nathan Benger 36:08
so great to have you on the church explained podcast and just want to thank everyone for listening. And remember, wherever you are consuming this content, then share subscribe, share it with someone you know that it will bless them as well. And also don't forget, you can head over to IKON dot Church for slash open for a load of free resources for yourself as a leader but also for your Church, but we look forward to seeing you next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
