CEP SEASON THREE EP: 22 - WITH DAVE MCKEOWN & NATHAN BENGER
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
On this random episode of the Church Explained podcast, David and Nathan (us) discuss various topics, such as the importance of integrity in leadership, the recent youth training day, and the need for intentional leadership development to raise leaders.
We also mention the resources on the IKON Open website and leadership coaching to help leaders raise those around them.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. Today's a little bit different Nathan it is.
Nathan Benger 0:10
It is the random podcast random podcast,
David Mckeown 0:14
which means anything can happen. Anything can happen though we
Nathan Benger 0:17
do have a list of things that we could talk through. So
David Mckeown 0:24
we've got some things written down here we want to talk about exactly, but who knows where it could go could go anywhere. So but how're you doing? Anyway?
Nathan Benger 0:31
I'm doing well. May I have just come back from Spain? Nice. Which is nice. And the weather in England at this present moment is glorious,
David Mckeown 0:40
hotter than Spain. Yes.
Nathan Benger 0:43
It is. Probably Heartland Spain. The problem with England is we're not set up for this kind of weather setup. And those people elsewhere, countries Exactly. And so the evenings for me and sleeping when it's hot, or not a good mix. I don't like it. I like cold. I'll have my window open all year round here. Yeah, we did say it was a random podcast.
David Mckeown 1:07
This was really rough. But I think we should get
Nathan Benger 1:11
firstly, how are you doing?
David Mckeown 1:12
I'm doing good as well. Yeah, yeah, I'm enjoying the weather. But a little bit like you. I don't want to too hot. Yeah, I just want to be nice to you. And I mean, so. Yes, but I think that's the British thing.
Nathan Benger 1:23
I don't know. Exactly. Exactly. Let's, let's go. Everyone else is like, shut up.
David Mckeown 1:30
So spoiled. I'm doing good. Enjoying stuff, enjoying life, and enjoying all the stuff. We're doing. IKON Church and
Nathan Benger 1:38
the world? Yeah, good. No, good. Good.
David Mckeown 1:41
So what are we going to hold by first? Shall we have a look at this? Yeah.
Nathan Benger 1:43
So we were leaders day, yesterday. Yeah. And the ground level, the network of churches were a part of the our lead pastors lead. And as we add a speaker there, Simon Behnam from a Church called Kerith, Community Church, Simon, and he brought a great talk around this idea of plumb nine, plumb lines, not measuring tapes. And, yeah, it was just just a great idea from a verse in Ezekiel, where it talks about the people rejoice, or the versions say the Lord rejoices when the plumb line is in the hand of a zero bubble. So yeah, we're really, you know, going to talk around that. And what does that mean for us as churches, but also in our lives as well?
David Mckeown 2:33
Yeah. I mean, I thought it was great. Because really, he was talking about two real concepts, wasn't it? One was to do with the integrity of a person. So think of the plumb line. Yep, idea of a plumb line is, of course is to keep things straight. Yep. So that was the context. He was talking about, really, around this idea of how do we, how do we have integrity in our lives in our churches, and focus on that more than focus on matrix numbers? Now, of course, he wasn't against matrix numbers. Another we have no, we think you've got to measure stuff. Look at stuff. But there is something I guess in the context we're in at the minute. Yeah. All the stuff that's happened the last couple of years. Yeah. Leaders and stuff. We do you have to give some attention to the integrity of our lives. Yeah. And the integrity of leadership on churches?
Nathan Benger 3:25
No, definitely. I think one of the big things is was it wasn't checking out the tape, which is kind of like these metrics. This is, this is what this is, this is how it looks. They are, you know, for us here at IKON Church there. We have our dashboard every week where it's just a gauge on, where's the Church? Where's it going? Yeah, but his his big thing was, but actually, it's the plumb line. It's the you know, like you're saying the integrity. And I guess, for many of us, we focused on the tape measure. How do we improve this? How do we do this? And I guess that's kind of cars consumed our life that then we've forgotten to even have a dashboard or check our own lives of, well, how am I doing? You know, even in some moral issues, how am I doing with this? I'm gonna get my finances, yeah, finances with relief family. All of those things. How am I doing? And where's that setup? Yeah. Which I think can sometimes become a oh, I'll deal with that later. Whereas His thing was, now let's, let's focus on that. Let's
David Mckeown 4:40
work out. Yeah. And one of the things we've been talking a little bit on the podcast in previous episodes, was around this idea of healthy leaders healthy Church. Yeah. Because you can't, you can't separate them.
Nathan Benger 4:53
No. And so like, I mean, I guess a good conversation is like, there are things where leaders Is haven't been healthy, but they've still seem to grow. Yeah. And I think sometimes that's the that's a scary Yeah, that's the tension a little.
David Mckeown 5:09
Yeah. So it's a scary thing. But it's also it's a theologically, like it's God's grace. Yeah. In other words, God blesses is no matter what and one sad Yeah. But you're right. It looks like sometimes people are flourishing. Yeah. But actually, internally, yeah, they're not flourishing. No. So so how do we handle that? What what do we do with that? Well, I
Nathan Benger 5:33
think there has to be. So here in the air in the UK, if I, there's a there's a big epidemic, especially around among males, and the big epidemic is suicide. Yeah. And it comes from a place of maybe pride ego. Just really, that, that when men are facing issues, and I guess we could even just mention all of those things that we mentioned around the plumb line. We're not, we don't talk about them, we try and solve them. But in our trying to solve them in our in our just even ignoring them or pushing them, things can get worse. And it leads people to take that drastic action of, you know, suicide. And, you know, my hope would be people would actually take place where they go out, no need to talk to someone about conversation. I think it's the same for leaders is the fact of we want to guess in Church world. It's like, oh, let's project, everything's great. Everything's good. And I'm not saying that you should walk into a room and someone says to your house, things go in and you should pour out all your problems. I don't think you need to have someone that you do talk to.
David Mckeown 6:49
No, I think I think it's essential to having that someone rather than everyone exactly, because that's what responsibility, accountability, we all need that in our lives. And of course, we noticed sad like, as we think of some of the leaders, we're not going to mention them today. It's not a bite. But we know there is lots of leaders for the last few years that have I guess, gone astray, or stuff happen in their lives, which does bring it to the surface more like, we need to think about this. We need to have accountability. We need a conversation with someone I
Nathan Benger 7:23
think also, I was I was going through the Lord's Prayer again. And I think if we were to gather a group, and we were to pray through the Lord's Prayer, your kingdom come your will be done. We'd all be like, yeah, like we would all be going for it. Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us. I can imagine the room goes a little bit quiet. Yeah. Because again, it's that I'm actually gonna bring some things up that, you know, it's like, I'm asking for forgiveness of some of the thoughts, some of those patterns in my life, some of the things, the temptations, some of the way I've handled finance or even the way I've been in my family. And I think it's, it's a moment of, you know, whilst you talk to people, it's also a moment of, you know, if we go back confession, yeah, it's saying, I haven't got this right. I haven't got it all sorted. I need God's help.
David Mckeown 8:21
And we're not looking for perfection, or we're not none of us. None of us are perfect. So like, we don't want people to hear this and think, yeah, well, as a leader, I have to be perfect. But all together. No. But we do have to take moments where we're measuring. Yep. Not ourselves against people. But ourselves against Well, what is the Bible? Yeah, because that's if we're a Christian leaders. And that's got to be the most.
Nathan Benger 8:47
And I think that's why it's important to recognise who to speak to. Yeah. Because it's not that I bring it out to everyone.
David Mckeown 8:54
And you know, you don't need lots of right people, like I know from my own life, like, I've got a couple of people who I'll connect with. And I've been connecting with them for for a long, long time. But you don't need those usually one or two people you can connect with on a regular basis on a daily basis and talk stuff through you indefinitely.
Nathan Benger 9:14
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it was good.
David Mckeown 9:17
Yeah, more than measuring. Okay, so, we, I've got down here because it is a random one, but I think it's a good one to talk about. We're talking about. I've got here youth training there. Yeah. Something you guys done. Yeah. So this Church, yeah, this
Nathan Benger 9:31
past Saturday, we gathered youth leaders from the UK. And I was gonna say pretty close to us, but we had a couple of guys from quite, you know, London. And so, you know, three hour journey for them, but just the big idea of really pouring into youth ministries and powering them hopefully to see things and, you know, just given them tools, tips, things that We've done but then also creating a space. And I think this was one of the great things that were able to do create a space where they could have conversation around tables, and begin to collaborate. Whilst we presented something, a thought, an idea how we do something 20 minutes, then it was like, Okay, here's a few questions that you can tuck around. And yeah, it's just a great day. Great,
David Mckeown 10:21
great time to invest in people. Yeah. And of course, that's one of the things we'd love to do here. Yeah, Church is, you know, like we're doing the podcast. The reason we're doing a podcast, as always, is to quickly resource leaders. Yeah. So it's part of our passion. Yeah. Isn't it? Really? Yeah. DNA of us as a Church? Yeah, we want to equip others. So if I was to ask you, then just regarding that youth training day, what do you think like a producer, leaders listening? Leaders? Would like what was the big takeaway? I know, you had the pro moments? And yeah, he's in which is important. Yeah. But like, what was the the teaching? Takeaway? Yeah,
Nathan Benger 10:58
I think, I mean, all of the teaching was really practical, and covered different areas, from small groups to preaching and teaching to young people. All of that, but I think the big idea that went away from it was to, to have a vision. And not that that vision is separate to the church's vision, but you got to get a vision for it. Because then that why and that vision, and here's why we do this, then filters into all of those areas. And always, it has to start with that. Yeah. And, and so even when, you know, I think sometimes you have to work backwards. So when you think of your youth night, or your small group night, or however it looks, yeah, even just having a vision for that is really important. And you start with the end of okay, this is where we're either what I want to leave young people with, this is a this is what I want to have taught them. This is what you know, we want to have done, start with and start with the end in mind and work back. And that's the vision. That's the vision of this night. But then also there's the bigger vision. Here's where we want to get to Yeah. So then when I'm building my youth calendar, when I'm thinking about the knights, that's there, and it's working
David Mckeown 12:15
well in advance. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you know, some of the things that about nine they're thinking about September? Yep. year ahead. Yeah. They need to be planning. They really, yeah.
Nathan Benger 12:25
September at least. Now, you should be looking September to the end of the year. Yeah. I would even be thinking now. In January, probably July next year.
David Mckeown 12:37
So So thinking of those principles, I guess they apply not only to youth stuff, but also Danny part of Church life. Yeah. Yeah. Like we got to start with the end of mine. I think that was Stephen Covey. Yeah, his book. I can't remember what it was called. Can you remember? No. Habits of Highly Effective People? Seven.
Nathan Benger 12:57
That's it. Seven? Yeah.
David Mckeown 12:59
There's so many different 121. Team. So we don't well to remember that. We had seven habits of highly effective people a great book X. It's an old one. But it is good. Yeah. So some good stuff. What else have we got on?
Nathan Benger 13:15
Well, yeah, I mean, one of the things that we love to do is just give away resources to churches, and we've got some new stuff on IKON Open.
David Mckeown 13:24
Yeah, we're putting on some new stuff on there. Yes, great. We've we've put a load of sort of media stuff on there. You know, people often get on to the site and looking for times, and we've done a wee bit of work with our friends in the States. Chandler voice. Yep. It was on the podcast podcast. So he was on. And we partnered with them. They've got something similar to what we have in the sense of they're giving away free Church resources. Yeah. So we've got quite a lot of stuff on there. We want to encourage people that go on, take a look, that's I've never been on before. They're looking for resources for teams, or ministry, leadership, with loads of stuff online,
Nathan Benger 14:04
and completely free, free, completely free, free and always free. Yeah, free, always free. And also, you might be thinking, you know, we were talking about this at youth leaders training day, but it doesn't specifically link to youth. But you might think, Oh, we're not able to do that. Well, one of the things that really helped us in the early days of building youth and even Church was getting resources from elsewhere. Are we're not able to produce a five minute count and video work and they're on there. I'm not able to produce the small group resources. Yeah, well, I can grab them from there. And so anything that helps you do what you do, really is what we want to put on there.
David Mckeown 14:47
Good. I'll get on and have a look. Yeah, don't do stuff. Put your own stuff on. Yeah, we don't care.
Nathan Benger 14:52
Yeah, go for it. Go for it. We Yeah, we next on the list of our random podcast is raising Not leaders. Yeah.
David Mckeown 15:00
Let's talk about that for one because, again, that's something we've talked about on the podcast. It's part of our DNA as a Church. We're always thinking of who's next. Yes. Should we talk around that a little bit? Like, hide away? raise up leaders? Yeah. Yeah. Because I think when churches are listening to this, or leaders or listen to this, they're thinking, well, I want to raise up leaders. Hi, dad, dude. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 15:24
I think firstly, it's important start with, we don't have all the answers. And actually, we're, we're we're still learning. And we're still developing, and we're still thinking of ways to do this.
David Mckeown 15:39
We are intentional. Yes. Yes. That's the thing. We
Nathan Benger 15:43
don't stop now. Because we haven't got a you know, we don't, you know, maybe or that's not the answer, or whatever. We don't stop raising leaders. Because I think, you know, if I'm in a position of leadership than I should be raising leaders. And so there's a personal investment there, I guess. You know, through my background, a lot of my leadership raising was through you. Yeah. Put in young people 16 1718 into positions where they will lead in small groups, lead in teams, doing all of that, but on the side of that wasn't just Okay, go. Yeah, right. You know, we'll see if it works. It's kind of like, Okay, go. Let's give feedback. Yeah. Can you do this about how's that going for you? I think, I think sometimes we want to put on a big programme, which I don't know, I'm not against putting on programmes and courses and all of those. But I think the effective thing comes in when someone begins to lead. Yeah, they have a good leader who begins to feedback as well. So I've
David Mckeown 16:48
been thinking a little bit on this because of a chat with a few different leaders. And one of the things I pick up is sometimes people will focus on the programme. Yep. Hey, let's run a great programme. Now, it may not even be produced, it could be any year out of their chair. Yeah. And the thing I always challenging leaders with at the minute is like, Who who are you raising? Yeah. You know, I settled leaders, like, if you were to look at your time, how much is not as given to investing in leaders, or people you want to raise up?
Nathan Benger 17:17
Does anyone? Does anyone answer honestly? What's the Yeah,
David Mckeown 17:24
it is pretty mixed accent some, some will say, well, actually, yeah. I intended to do some leadership development people. But it hasn't quite happened yet. And I think really peep if you're a leader, you need to stop. Yeah, you need to think, Who am I really? Yeah. Because if you're not raising leaders, then you have no one to build a programme.
Nathan Benger 17:47
Of Yeah, exactly.
David Mckeown 17:49
So I think there's something about like, couple of things. I'm just thinking off as one. They identify. Yeah, like, if I go back to a conversation we had a couple of nights ago, the leaders leadership group, we can't go into details. We've got something hard on the press coming soon. Yeah, we can't talk about that too much. But what we did was we went around the room, and we're dandified people who we would look invest in the rears up and have conversations with conferences. Yeah. So what one way identify them to more intentional Yep. By, you know, having those conversations. So please, just, hey, here's the you know, we want to do this. So I'll say to leaders, okay, well, well, who are the two or three people or five people that you want to invest at? Yeah. And they're there. But sometimes they don't think they need to do Yeah.
Nathan Benger 18:39
Yeah. Do you think sometimes? That's because we don't know what to look for?
David Mckeown 18:45
Yeah, go ahead and tap, you know, so
Nathan Benger 18:47
like, I mean, I, I used to have a thing. I still still use it, but I'm looking for people who are faithful. They turn up? Yeah, they're there. They're available. They're willing to do stuff. Yeah. And they're teachable. Yeah. So in moments, they're teachable. And, you know, looking for that now, not that they're ever talks about it. Not everyone's perfect. But there's that element of it. Because then with that, I can work with that. And I can raise
David Mckeown 19:17
so you're looking for faithfulness? Yeah. Looking. Are people teachable? Yeah. Two good qualities. Yes.
Nathan Benger 19:23
available, available? Like they're willing to serve whatever area? Yes. Oh, we need to stack these chairs. Yeah, I'll do it. We need to get these tables, right. Yeah, I'm available. They're not like sat on the sideline. I'll let someone else know. It's like, No, I can do it. Yeah.
David Mckeown 19:39
And of course that you know, you're talking about a youth contact.
Nathan Benger 19:42
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but I think that is not even looking at the Church context. Now. He's faithful, who's available
David Mckeown 19:50
available and who's teaching? Yep. Yep. So those are three good principles. Three good qualities. If leaders are thinking I'm looking around my Church, right, you know, Who do it's because it's not a bite? They've got it all together. No perfect to buy it like, Have you got two more?
Nathan Benger 20:06
I think Yeah. So like for me faithful is are they there? Yeah, they transact shows they've got a heart towards the Church by in the morning. Yeah, you know the prayer meeting, oh, they're there, they've got a heart towards it available just means they're willing to serve without, you know, any strings attached or anything like that and obviously teachable? Well, if we're gonna raise them, they've got to have that quality of, you know, being teachable moment.
David Mckeown 20:31
So we were we're on with some of that stuff. Yeah, we're doing that, right. We're always asking the question, who's next? Or let's identify leaders. I think I put it on there. Because I really want to encourage leaders to really be very intentional about who the reasons are, because you're gonna have all the best programmes in the world. But if you know leaders,
Nathan Benger 20:52
well, I was I was thinking about, I was thinking about this the other day, yeah, like to raise up leaders today is and to give them resources to help them is easier today than it's ever been. So much podcast, youtube, all of that stuff. Books, average, less combat. Yeah, all of that. So it's all there that actually I'm not having to create so much. It's the intentionality again of, okay, you know, I'm gonna send you this, you should listen to this. And then following that, Oh, yeah. And not just leaving it there, or,
David Mckeown 21:28
yeah. So in other words, have your password leader don't get lost now on just planning out your service. Don't get lost on just plan out your sermons? Like, take some of your week? Yeah. Invest in somebody. Here. Reasonable.
Nathan Benger 21:43
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Let's kick off the bumper may kick.
David Mckeown 21:49
Okay, we're gonna we're gonna leave that one there. Yeah,
Nathan Benger 21:51
we'll leave that one.
David Mckeown 21:55
What else? We got a couple more things. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 21:57
So we got Church stuff, Church stuff. That
David Mckeown 22:00
could be Church stuff we've
Nathan Benger 22:02
been talking about?
David Mckeown 22:04
What was done? What else? What about
Nathan Benger 22:07
coaching and training? Obviously, you're, you're even leading a coaching team, you're part of a coaching team for our network of churches as well, which we just announced that difference and part of their ground level ecosystem. How's that go in? And,
David Mckeown 22:26
yeah, that's gonna write it's out there for people to connect to.
Nathan Benger 22:31
And aside, it's not just for our network of churches, people can access that code. And of
David Mckeown 22:37
course, that's some of the stuff we're doing here. And we've, we're pleased in the sense we've got some scope and influence for the churches. Yeah. So I have the joy and the privilege of coaching and working with leaders. Yeah. Different parts of the world. Different parts of the UK. Yeah. And, and it's been exciting. Recently, I've just done a bit of work with the Church, which was brilliant, where I was trying to work with our leaders to equip them to know how to coach. Yeah, so not just coaching them. So I've done one on one coaching with them, which was brilliant. Yeah. But also like, what are the coaching principles that you can use your Church to have more of coaching culture? Yeah. So that's been exciting. I've really enjoyed and, you know, just take a period of time working with a Church, working through, you know, some of the key principles of seeing where there can take them and use them could be anywhere in our small groups and their staff and their teams. So it's more of a coaching culture than a telling culture. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 23:36
So what? So let's say, you know, you're in a Church context. Yeah. What does that what does that coaching look like for a leader? Rather than the talent? Yeah. So rather than up front, I'm telling you what to do. Yeah,
David Mckeown 23:50
definitely. I think for for leaders, it's all by trying to draw from people what's in them? Yeah. Because like, if you go and tell somebody, Hey, do this, do that, or live this way? You know, very often people react against that. Yeah. I think a better way is to try and coached under them. Yeah. You know, what's in them are ask the right questions to draw the golden their line. Yeah. So then they come up with the answer, and they go on to it. So So coaching is more about helping people to think and process rather than giving them the answers. Yeah. Because they've probably got the answers. Yeah, they've got the brand naked work. But by us going to tell them the answer. You're sort of cheating them a little bit.
Nathan Benger 24:34
So just Hi. So asking you, you're asking questions. You're trying to lead people to an audience, but you're not trying to lead them to your answer.
David Mckeown 24:45
That's the big thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Benger 24:46
So I think, you know, I just think of my own leadership, sometimes it's like, Alright, I need to lead this person to my end. So yeah.
David Mckeown 24:53
And that's, that's the engineer, isn't it? Really? Yeah. So coaching is really as you said, It's not about leaving people to my preference. Yep. It's about trusting that that person has something in themselves. Yeah. The gods that work in their lives and actually, you know, get them to get to what they want to do, rather than what you want them to do.
Nathan Benger 25:15
And so then how does that look different to mentor? And,
David Mckeown 25:19
Greg, great question. It sounds like you've lined that up slowly. So the two three things really mentoring is about adding into someone's life. Yeah, coaching is about drying up, right? So you may coach somebody, and you help them to think and the process and the workout what they need to do, man things about like, I've done this. Yep. So let me add in Bob, even if you're mentoring, like, I want to say to people leaders of listening, yeah. And the mentoring that like, you know, Arden sparingly. Yeah. Another words. Like, just because you know, the stuff doesn't mean you have to give it to the person. Yeah. It's better to be, you know, almost like a sprinkler. You know, sprinkle it in a fire firehose. Yeah. Or you just shoot everything out? Let me give you everything I know. And then see you later. Yeah, and nothing happens to you. And all sorts of by adding and gently sprinkle. And and, and but also think mentoring is about accountability. So I could coach somebody. Yeah. And actually, they're accountable for their stuff, right? If I'm mentoring them, then actually there's a bit of there's a different kind of ability. I want to have a conversation, where we talked about this last time, how you do
Nathan Benger 26:29
Yeah. And I think that's important for leaders, leaders to recognise. Am I a mentor in this situation? Or am I a coach? Yeah. Because if I'm a mentor, then there is a level of accountability. If I'm just a coach, I'm just leaving and drawing out those answers.
David Mckeown 26:44
And then the person needs to know that you're working with Yes, because they don't know. Like, they don't know what to what to do. How
Nathan Benger 26:52
do they know? So? Yeah, no, that's great. Good stuff.
David Mckeown 26:55
Yeah. I'm enjoying it and joy to work with churches and leaders. Some people can access that coaching. Yeah, they go on to our website, Church forward slash coaching. There's my cell phone. We've got a couple other coaches on there as well. Right. So people need help. We can get them to the right the right yeah, yeah. What are we going on there? Anything else? Anything else? So?
Nathan Benger 27:21
I don't know. I think we've, we've done I think we're done. I think this has been a great random has been so that's gone from plumb lines, to training days to raising up leaders to coaching and
David Mckeown 27:33
oh, let's let's do this one. Go on. Anything else? Anything else? What has been your favourite podcast recently?
Nathan Benger 27:39
What has been my favourite podcast recently? It was the PJ and all Rica. That was podcast. I enjoyed that. For two reasons. One, we were able to be in the same room. I think I think that's great. And that's not knocking any of that. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. But it you just get a great field, but then just some of the wisdom around, like, lasting in the long haul. going, you know, just to keep going and do that, I think was amazing. And it was great to have them over that week and weekend with us as well. Yeah.
David Mckeown 28:17
Wow. That's fantastic. What
Nathan Benger 28:17
about yourself?
David Mckeown 28:18
Yes. I really enjoyed that one. I also enjoyed the one we had last week. Let me put a time stamp on it. It is May, June.
Nathan Benger 28:27
Yes. What? What day? Is it? 14th of June.
David Mckeown 28:30
So we had Peter from our Elevation Church and Florida.
Nathan Benger 28:34
Yep. I wasn't. I wasn't
David Mckeown 28:38
actually because he was in a hurry. We call it we'll call it soccer, just to help the American but he I really liked just hanging out with him because he was just sharing a little bit about his background a little bit about what he's doing in the Church there. And Rolando. Yeah, planting the Church. Yeah, some great advice. And you know, if they haven't listened to it, I say go back to listen. Yeah, but just a nice vibe. And
Nathan Benger 29:05
I'll be honest, I'm only halfway through halfway through.
David Mckeown 29:06
I'm halfway through the rest of it. And and part two is going about this Friday. It was a good one because just a fresh young leader with a real passion to see life's jeans. I thought was brilliant now
Nathan Benger 29:22
Awesome. Well, thanks for listening watching. The church explained podcast been so great to be together and just want to encourage you to rate reviews, subscribe, wherever you're consuming this content really helps us also sharing it to other leaders and getting this out that may be beneficial to them. Just helps us get the word out and we want to bless and grow and see churches healthy. And so doing that but that's been it for the church explained podcast and we will see you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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LEADERSHIP COACHING
