CEP SEASON FOUR EP: 01 - WITH GUEST MAL FLETCHER
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
In part one of our discussion, we are joined by special guest Mal Fletcher to explore the potential benefits and challenges of AI and technology in both the Church and individuals' lives. We touch on various topics, such as how AI can be used for environmental solutions, manufacturing, ministry and healthcare while acknowledging the concerns and challenges of job displacement, false representation, and the loss of empathy.
We also delve into the importance of highlighting the empathic side of ministry and the significance of engaging in dialogue and advocacy for ethical guidelines and regulations to govern the use of AI in the public sphere. Overall, our conversation is a thought-provoking and insightful exploration of AI's potential impact on society and the Church.
We hope you enjoy
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hey, welcome to the church explained podcast, our conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church.
David Mckeown 0:08
Dave, and I'm one of the hosts of the podcast normally, I'm joined by Nathan Benger, but he's at the moment selling himself in the spin. It says anniversary so he tells me so he's not a ride today. But it's exciting the mile Fletcher with us today on the show. Welcome. Well, great to have you here.
Mal Fletcher 0:27
Thank you, Dave, good to be here.
David Mckeown 0:30
Fantastic. Let me just share with our audience a little bit about you. So people get a bit of a flavour of who you are. And it's hard to encapsulate just in a sentence at someone's life. So hopefully, as we get into the podcast module, we'll be able to share a little bit more about you, your background and your faith journey. And anything that may be relevant to this podcast today. But let me just share a little bit about Mr. Fletcher is the chairman of 2030 Plus, a London based futures forum focused on future shifts and leadership, innovation, helping businesses, communities and individuals deal proactively with change. molL is also a social commentator, keynote speaker, author, and podcaster and broadcaster as well. So Hey, Mark, great to have you here with us today. And hopefully, we can just dig in a little bit about some of the future stuff and stuff from running to Church as well. I think a lot of our listeners will be just interested in your take on what is the future of the Church look like? So welcome, today.
Mal Fletcher 1:36
Thank you again, David.
David Mckeown 1:39
When it's so well, I wonder if we could just kick in a little bit about you maybe just find out a little bit about your faith journey, your your background, maybe even a little bit of about your family, you have some personal stuff that you happen to share.
Mal Fletcher 1:52
So absolutely. As you get older, of course, it gets harder to put your life into a few words, but I'll do my best.
Mal Fletcher 2:00
I was born in Melbourne, Australia, I still had the accent though. I've lived in the European region for 30 years now. And my father was working class, as was my mum, they were hard working people who loved God. They were the most committed members of the local Church all the time I was growing up. And it was often commented on at the time, so I had a great heritage. But of course, with heritage comes some baggage and my baggage just happens to be religious baggage at times. And my parents raised me to be very community focused for which I'm extremely grateful now.
Mal Fletcher 2:38
I studied architecture at university, then went from that to study theology and apologetics for a time. Alongside of the latter, I was doing youth ministry in our Church at a time when there were only I think, four or five accredited use ministers in the charismatic Pentecostal Church in Australia. So it was a rarity. And my family is there was a great sense of the love of God, the love of life. Good fun, the seven kids in a house that probably really was only built for four and a half kids. But you know, we had a wonderful upbringing, and we're so grateful for that.
David Mckeown 3:20
Yeah, it's good to find out a little bit about that. And for you there, what are you looking at now you're based in London,
Mal Fletcher 3:27
I'm based just outside of Oxford is where we live, but still travel extensively in various parts of the world, was involved in the 1980s as the first national director of a movement called Youth Alive, Australia. And this thing grew from around 300 young people in our city of Melbourne, to over 60 to 80,000, conservatively SPEAKING IN THE NEXT 10 to 12 years. And it's still going forward today. It's just really reaching out to young people with the gospel in a way that they could relate to, without. And this was a conscious effort without compromising the message, the core message of the gospel. So from that went to Europe, started youth events, leadership networks across 50 nations in Europe, based in Denmark, and then about 10 years ago, sorry, 20 years ago now moved to the UK predominantly because I felt a call to secular media and to influencing in some way civic leadership and perhaps politics behind the scenes.
David Mckeown 4:37
And maybe we'll dig into some of that as we go through the podcast today. So I'll just tell us a little bit about you what you do for fun.
Mal Fletcher 4:46
Well, speaking to people like you is always fun, especially with an accent you have. Yeah, and for Belfast. I well I'm pretty simple to please when it comes to fun because I travel a lot I have done for 40 years. Around the world, I just like being at home. Reading do a lot of reading I play piano I was a singer songwriter before I was a preacher. So I still occasionally dabble in that not in public. I must hasten to add, but occasionally I'll write a song for my own benefit or my grandkids or something. Yeah, I driving around spending time with my wife, Davina. No extreme sports in there.
David Mckeown 5:26
Okay. No, no jumping off buildings or anything like that then. So just taking the easy, never been tempted. Never have impacted, I'd be tempted a few times it just to do some upselling or some other stuff or, you know, hung gliding, I quit fancy the next late, but you never know might do it at some point in my life. So a mile just as a great hug here great to find a little bit of idea as a person. I thought it'd be good for us just to begin to talk around some of the stuff that you're exploring some of the stuff you're working on thinking especially around the the the idea of AI at the minute, it's very popular. It's really come to the forefront. And I guess trying to work out like, you know, we're what should leaders do with this at all, whether in a Church contacts or outside the Church context? I mean, AI is here to stay, it's not going anywhere. If anything, it's going to continue to progress. So what do you think leaders and churches for your research and experience? What should they do with this? How should they respond?
Mal Fletcher 6:34
Yeah, it's a great question, Dave, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about that. We're actually at the moment running webinars, fortunately, it is on this subject going into all the research that we've been dealing with over the last few years. And we're getting good response from different parts of the world. And we're grateful for that people can find out about that at 2030 plus.com. But the the key thing I want to say here is that when you start discussing AI, people get quite either excited or paranoid and upset. in equal measure. And it's important to define a few things before you go into what the pros and cons might be. I mean, when we talk about artificial intelligence, the word intelligence there is used in a value neutral way. There's no reference data, what is good or bad, we're talking about essentially, mathematical calculations based on programming and data. So machines are making a moral, not really choices, but a moral directions they're choosing. And we as moral agents, are the ones who decide whether that's used for good or something less than good. Also, the word artificial is interesting, because it's drawn from the word artifice, which means mask, I might wear the mask of something that looks like human intelligence. But looks can be deceptive AI is more about. We call it single focus intelligence. So if you do try to play a game of chess against an AI machine, you'll probably lose every time. Some people went but not many. Because it's very good at complex single focus tasks. It's not so good, yet anyway, at multiple, multiple focus tasks, doing them simultaneously in the way that the brain does every day. So right now, at least AI falls well short of what we call artificial general intelligence, which is where a machine in theory could perform any task that you and I could do. It's very important that we say that upfront. Much will depend here on what we decided as human agents to do with AI. And I'm one in the public square, calling for a moratorium on some developments, so that we can get in place guidelines, ethical guidelines, for the use of AI in the same way we did for the use of genetic research back in 2015. We need the same sort of agreements and regulations in place. So that's the place I start when it comes to talking to Church leaders.
David Mckeown 9:07
Yeah, and a good place to start. And if you think of AGI then work, how far do you think that is off? You know, the sort of general intelligence, the artificial general intelligence, do you think it's, is that something that is going to happen? Or is it just an idea?
Mal Fletcher 9:24
Well, to be honest, the the school is still out on that one. Partly because we don't yet understand how the human brain works. And it will take us a very long time from now to map the full neurology of our brain. So in trying to emulate the capacity of our brains, if that's what we're doing with AGI. It will take a while for us to build some sort of model based in the human creature. That said though, we already have aspects of machine learning we call machine learning, which is where a machine doesn't require a programmer to To programme it to do a certain task like drive a car, it watches a human being do it and learns, by mapping the data of the human beings activity, inferring from that data, rules for behaviour for certain kinds of behaviour. So it teaches itself, it changes its own programming as a result, we call that deep learning, partly because technologists, when they're honest, will tell you that they don't really understand how it happens. They just know that it does. So there are areas obviously for concern when it comes to AI. But how close we are to general intelligence? I think the school stood out on that one.
David Mckeown 10:39
Okay, so good. So it's still be a little bit in the future, when there's a lot of talks delayed there at the moment around that topic as well. Some things it's going to be quite eminent. Others maybe think it's a little bit still in the future. So thinking of AI and how you've described it. What are the wins? Do you think, for us as a civilization? Or what are the wins for us as the Church or as Church leaders? I guess, and what are the challenges? You think, no fears?
Mal Fletcher 11:11
That's a great question. Probably a three hour question, to be honest. But it's wonderful opportunity. Thank you. I think that we look at society wide. Globally, even AI could be very helpful in helping us find solutions to our environmental challenges. It could build and can now build predictive models for things like maximum air damage, to tell us what days of the week and a particular month might be the worst for air pollution so that on those days in future, we might choose to limit traffic or limit industrial output on those days. It could be very helpful in manufacturing, improving the control of robotic machines, which are already in place in so called smart factories, enhancing the efficiency of those machines, checking their decisions to make sure they make good ones. Before they here we face terrible consequences. AI in healthcare, already, AI is as good as or better than human doctors, according to some studies in diagnosing certain forms of cancer, simply because of the sheer amount of data, AI can can process. So there are some positives for the Church, I think there are positives, there are two possibilities with things like textual translation. AI can help us translate the Bible and all kinds of text into very obscure languages, through data mining of language patterns. That's what CIT T GPT is built on. record large language patterns or models, because they are trained using a whole lot of language based data. So that can be very helpful in the translation of texts. It could help us in analysing connection points for the gospel in a culture, what are the questions that people are asking? What are the points where we're most likely to be met with a receptive hearing when it comes to the good news? simultaneous translation of spoken word, you know, it's already happening in some big conferences around the world. Even in rare dialects, AI can translate simultaneously, what someone is saying into a foreign language without any human intervention, which is remarkable. One of the things I love and be talking about this for a few years now is the opportunity for us as Christians to write position papers on major social problems, calling on the writings of great Christian figures in the past and present. So it could collect all the thoughts and you know, you name them CS Lewis, talking, go further back, St. Augustine and so on, translate them into modern language on a particular subject, and then publish them in many forms at once. So via video, audio, text music, all at once. And that could be hugely helpful to us in interacting with a society and trying to present the kingdom of God in that apologetic of modern issues. There's leadership training, there's all sorts of other things that it can help us with, but I think AI is not necessarily bad news for the Church.
David Mckeown 14:22
So yes, some some great opportunities are, as you've described, some things we can use to work out what's happening in our communities, or cities or times, or, you know, so we can present the message. And then the fact of Where's what you're saying there? What are the what are the challenges, though? Do you think there are any challenges or as just an upside when it comes to AI?
Mal Fletcher 14:47
No, there are plenty of challenges. Again, will take a long time to do to deal with it properly, but I think one of the most obvious ones is jobs and Church leaders are very interested in this one start commissioned by the House of Lords in London found a few years ago that in the next what is now 15 years, something like 35% of British jobs could be automated. In Australia, it's more like 45% of jobs in the same timeframe. So unemployment and underemployment are already affecting people in areas like manufacturing, but also in professions. We're seeing lawyers now complaining that robots and AI chatbots are taking over certain areas. Through history, new Tech's have always brought new forms of jobs. But the challenge now Dave, is whether we can transition quickly enough to take advantage of entirely new careers before the machines get to them.
David Mckeown 15:44
Because it's just it's the speed of learning, isn't it at the minute with the AI stuff?
Mal Fletcher 15:48
Yeah, exactly. It's the it's the it's the sort of almost exponential growth in what AI can do. And it's so it's very hard to give definitive predictions about where AI AI will be in about five years, which is why some technologists are, I think, rightly, very concerned, very watchful, and in his AI in a cashless economy. AI will put us even more at the mercy of automated systems. And I've been saying in the media for a long time, cash may be messy, but it has weight, you can feel it later in your pocket. And the big problem with digital cash, digital currency is that people spend more with less forethought, and AI might lose Wilmers, more in in that direction. So there's some great benefits false representation is a big one for Church leaders. Imagine the damage AI could do to a pastor's professional reputation or even personal life as it becomes more and more skilled at producing fake videos, deep fake videos. Yeah, you know, Church leaders can be accused of all kinds of misbehaviour, even crimes, and then very quickly tried online, in the court of public opinion. And look, can I just say this, one of the things AI can't do, and it should encourage pastors and Christians generally, AI can't empathise. Empathy is the one characteristic of human activity that I think machines will never master. It can fake empathy, by reading your visual signals of your face and so on. But it can't show the real thing because it has no shared human experience. And so jobs that are empathic in their nature or therapeutic in nature, I think, need to play up that side of their work so that we safeguard them and posturing is one of those ministries, one of those, we need to play up the empathic side of therapeutic, rather than purely scientific side of what we're doing, so that we have a little more chance about living the machine.
David Mckeown 17:58
Yeah, that's a very good point there. It's that empathy, that human touch, I guess, that people will still always be looking for. Or, I mean, it is interesting to think that AI is used, and that's lots of even softer type jobs, like whether it's therapy or even coaching, you know, I mean, I'm involved in leadership coaching, but of course, people go online, now they can, they can put some information and they can get good answers, or good challenging questions by just from Ai itself. So it isn't interesting that some of those softer skills, whether coaching or therapy, a IKON help, but it still misses, I guess, the human touch where That's where leaders and pastors, men to their strength, I guess, because that's never going to go away.
Mal Fletcher 18:46
Yeah, it's one of the things I was speaking about this on, I think it was GB news or something the other day, with the railways closing off all human ticketing booths. One of the things we should have learned from COVID is simply that a lack of human interaction is not good for mental health. In the age of high tech, we need more high touch, not less. A growing engagement with technology means we need more engagement with humanity, for our own mental health sake. And I think, as we say, with ministers and pastors, the good news is that if we can emphasise that empathic side, not just in counselling, but even in our preaching, and teaching and so on, I was a Pastor once a long time ago. I'm still an accredited minister, by the way, I'm still date but as a minister, there is a an empathic side to everything we do. Even the public proclamation involves a certain degree of listening to what's happening around us. And that will, I think, become more and more important as AI kicks in.
David Mckeown 19:55
So that's a great win really, for churches and leaders to be thinking oh, have thoughts rather than, I guess working against AI? Like what what can we do to enhance the thing that we have rather than setting it aside? I, I've been thinking a little bit around this idea of the individual as well. There's a lot of stuff out there around. How do we enhance ourselves? Like whether it's biohacking, you know, people want to improve their skills and their abilities? What are your thoughts on stuff like that? Because, you know, people will use technology, they will use other things to improve their lives. Do you think there's Do you think there's a line that we shouldn't cross?
Mal Fletcher 20:43
Yeah, I think there is. I need to preface it by saying I'm not by nature or theology, a Luddite. I'm not someone who's averse to change. I think the Christians in history have often been at the forefront of adopting new tools, new technologies, printing presses, just one of hundreds of examples I could give you. So I think that there's something in the book of Genesis that leads to the you know, this idea of subduing yours, funding it and having dominion over taking all the the natural benefits of creation, the natural potential of creation, combining that with our God given human ingenuity, to subdue the earth to have dominion in a stewardship, way, loving stewardship. So right from the beginning, I think we see this idea that Christians are to engage. My dear friend, John Edwards, Dr. John Edwards, he passed away a couple of years ago, was for 20 years, the head of the EAA here in the UK. He used to say this, if you want to shape the culture, you must engage the cultural conversation with curiosity. It's that curiosity factor that is often missing, or from time to time missing in what we do as Christians. We need to be curious about the tick to find out how it ticks what its potential positives are, and then redeem aspects of it, you know, so that it can be glorifying to God, at least in those aspects. So answer the specific thing on things like biohacking, which you've suggested. In the 19th century, we invited tech into our workspaces through factories, and so on. In a 20th century, we invited it more increasingly into our homes and private lives, through domestic gadgets, and even the internet eventually. But this century, we seem to be moving increasingly towards inviting tech into our bodies. So we have wearables. You know, at the moment, we have high tech prosthetics produced by holographic projection, we have brain implants. On the cards. Elon Musk wants to start human trials this year, for neural link to insert chips into human brains, potentially to stave off memory loss, recovery of sites might result as well, all of that's good. But it does raise questions. And this is where you're coming from three questions in particular that we're going to need to keep asking and trying to answer. The first one is how do we feel about our bodies becoming hackable and trackable devices? I got a smartphone, you got a smartphone. They're hackable by definition, any computer devices, and they're trackable. So a chip inserted under the skin or in some other part of the body suffers from that same potentiality. At least you can put your smartphone in the drawer and leave it at home. You can't do that with a chip embedded into the body. So that's a question. Second one is what happened to the line between human and machine? How do we know where humanity ends? And technology begins? Does that line even matter anymore? That's a big question. And for a Christian, that has to be based in our, our theology, doesn't it? And here's the final one. The third question we asked in the face of these things is, how far are we willing to go to pursue Ultra pragmatism? Now, I've got no problem with pragmatism, the Bible actually doesn't have a problem with pragmatism because Jesus actually used the word pragmatism to when he said to the, in the parable, the talents, he's the master says to the servants make a profit, if you like that word, profit is pragmatism. So God wants us to get results. But Ultra pragmatism says everything can be done, it should be done. And in technological terms, that history shows this opens up an entire Pandora's box of all kinds of horrors. We need to think about what we do before we do it, especially with these powerful texts we're talking about today. So I have no problem with people. Inserting you know, having inserted machine like entities in into problem areas of the body. Essentially, we've been doing something like that for decades. Now with other forms of surgery. You could argue that a hip replacement, for example, is like that. The difference here is that it's electronic. And it could be wired to the cloud, which can mean that there's some danger that you will be hacked. All these things need to be worked through.
David Mckeown 25:23
Yeah, I think that's a big challenge. It's that hackable and trackable, I think people need to think through a lot. When it comes to any of the tax stuff. I guess, in my mind, I'm almost just envisioning where lots of these things start off as help to the human body. So it could be like someone suffering from, you know, mental, you know, like a loss of memory. So they put a chip in, but it gets to a point where it becomes more than that doesn't that word becomes available to the wider population, people begin to use it. And actually, so rather than just helping with memory loss, it enhances their memory from what they have, I think, I think that's one of the key things that could be possible, even in the sort of the near distant future not too far away. So I'm trying to, I guess, wrestle with that a little bit part of me if I'm honest, thanks. Actually, I quite like that idea of having something that helped me be better. But it comes to those fundamental questions. There's another bit hackable and trackable. So as Christians, look, we have to think, Well, where is the line? Because sometimes the line starts here, we're okay with it. And then suddenly, you know, it's for health reasons, then suddenly the line shifts, okay, it's for improvement reasons. And then the line keeps moving. So what's your take on that? What should we do? Do you think as you're thinking of the future? What what's your advice to leaders?
Mal Fletcher 26:56
Well, I think the Christian leaders and Christians in general, it really is not so much about the technology, but the ethics of its research and development and use, it comes back to that question of ethics. And of course, ethics, is a branch of philosophy that really essentially only asks two questions, one, what's the right thing to do? And how do I apply that in a given situation, particularly in a non binary situation where there's no clear right and wrong, where there are shades of grey, as you say, there are with issues relating to AI. I think though our ethics then has to be based in a very sound, what I call theology of technology. We've already seen this constantly, some Christians basing their theology on moral issues, on their experience, or the experience of people they love, instead of the theology of Scripture. Our experience as Christians has to serve our theology, not the other way around. And I think we need to see Church leaders equipped to present what I'm calling a theology of technology. And Christians are aware of the truth, for example, there are a whole bunch of precepts that I've set out for theology of technology, and I'm still adding to it all the time. They come straight from scripture, there's nothing particularly revelatory about them. It's the application that's important. And the first one is, the thing I touched on earlier that the development of check is a fulfilment of God's first command in Genesis one. Yeah, but that means if that's true, if we're to, quote, call to use the raw materials of, of nature and our ingenuity to steward creation, we should focus on finding innovative fresh ways to use tech. So we shouldn't be on the backfoot, we should be on the front foot. But it also means we must remain in control, as you've suggested, control of the development of our tools, because I often say takes a good servant. It's a very poor Master, we need to subdue it. Right. Another precept, I think, is very important, pastors will affirm this. Only humans reflect the special image of God. And that has to be absolutely central, central to our thinking about things like AI. You know, Genesis two says that God breathed into us human beings, the breath of life. No matter how sophisticated our AI becomes, it will always be at its root, a human creation. But we, according to the scripture, or divine creation were uniquely set apart, and God is breathing. God hasn't rather breathed into tech, this breath of life, and we have no power to breathe that special breath of life into machines. So AI might impress us, that we have to reserve the respect we have for human beings for human beings, and reserve the reverence we have for God for God. We shouldn't treat technology with that kind of respect or reverence. So There's two precepts. And I could give you a bunch more that I think should would then drive our ethical standards. Our ethics have to be based in some sort of biblical theology.
David Mckeown 30:11
Yeah, I love that. I wonder if I could just push you a little bit further on that then maybe if you could share maybe two or three more those precepts that you've been thinking through, because those two that have shown earlier, very helpful. The fact that God breathed into us we're, you know, we're made in the image of God. So that's not going to change that. That's that's the fundamental truth for a follower of Jesus, what we're believing what other useful precepts then would you be able to share with leaders today?
Mal Fletcher 30:42
Today, one of the this is where we start, actually the webinars I mentioned before, for pastors and leaders at 30 plus.com, because this is the most important thing I think, in all of it is that we understand how our theology and our kingdom worldview speaks to this issue of technology and its power. It's not as if it's not presaged in some way. In Scripture, I think I'll give you one more. The third one, I would say today is that the Church should use take more than for Church related needs. Psalm 24, the earth is the Lord's everything in the world and all who live in think I'm quoting again, correctly. So the Church isn't God's only inheritance, the entire world is rightfully yours. And our lives should reflect that, including the way we use technology. So we need to be looking at ways of using technology to benefit community to benefit the city, Jeremiah 29, seek the welfare of the city, pray on its behalf or in seeking its welfare, you're buying your welfare. I often tell pastors, you know, it's not much of a way to live your life, to get out of bed in the morning saying, I'm going to add another 50 people to my Church this year. That's nice. But when you get to 4550 55 years of age, you look back at your life and think is that it? But if you get up in the morning and say I'm I'm here to seek the welfare of this city in Jesus name, and I'm here to help bring redemptive revelation to areas of the city and read dig wells in my city. The way the wells of Abraham is, where the things that God has placed within that city, the the strengths of industry and so on? How can I enhance that by building a Church in the process of building a Church? So, you know, I'm not saying our first call isn't shepherding the people we've got it is, but we should do it with an eye on the people that aren't yet there. But could be. And so, this idea of us being the Lords in the city, being important to God should drive out approach to technology, particularly things like AI, because if we can adapt AI in godly ways, we can be an example to the city of how it can be used, how it in a sense can be sanctified setup. Ah,
David Mckeown 33:02
yeah. Yeah, I like that. So. So like any of the technology, not just in our time, but I obviously in previous generations, it's our decision of AI, we're going to use that or we're going to use for good, or is it gonna be used in some other way? You've mentioned a few times on the web, from what you've been doing. You know, we'll put a link in the show notes about those webinars, because I think it'd be really interesting for leaders to get on those, especially if they're interested in the subject of AI and technology, and all those sort of things looking to the future. So we will drop that in into the show notes. So people can find that, oh, I often they happening for you then after you running those in a minute,
Mal Fletcher 33:45
while the webinars have been set up so that they run automatically at certain times. And the benefit of that is we have people in the US people in Europe, Australia, Asia, South Africa, walking into them, and you can't ask questions, because there's a through mechanism whereby questions are asked, asked, and either at the time or slightly later answered. But the great thing about it is a Pastor can say, look, there are five or six or seven options on that particular date that I can do. This is the best time for me. I want to dive in at that time, and because they're 30 minutes maximum long, it means that we're cramming an awful lot of truths into that 2025 minute frame. And it means that leaders can go away and really mull over what they can even replay it if they wish to. You don't have to watch it once. So it's better than a digital roundtable which we've often run for Church leaders. Yeah, this is slightly better because it allows a multiplicity of options,
David Mckeown 34:49
different time zones, all that sort of stuff makes it easier and more accessible for people I guess. Yeah. More or less been so good to have you on the show with us today. We You know that some of the stuff you've shared is really going to be helpful for listeners as they think about the future. As a thing of technology or AI or ethics. It's good for them to be thinking through some of these big subjects and how they can be more strategic as they look to proclaim the gospel in their setting. So first of all, I want to say thank you for for joining us today on the church explained podcast. Where else can people find you if they want to connect with you? I know you've got the website 23 plus.com Is that correct?
Mal Fletcher 35:31
2032 030 followed by the worldwide us 2030 plus.com. But they can also get us on social media. If you go to my name now, ma l not el ma L. Fletcher. At in Twitter, Instagram threads. Tik Tok, youtube, it's every day something is there, often multiple instances
David Mckeown 36:02
of stuff lasting. So, so people can connect with you through all those different social media platforms as well. Great stuff. And of course, if people want to get on to some of your webinars, they can find that info on your website as well. We would encourage leaders to do that that would be maybe a great help to them, as they're thinking through some of these big ideas. Well, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for being on the church explained podcast and we want to say to all our audience today, that for them to you know, read, subscribe wherever they listen to this content, just to let people know that we're here and encourage them to keep connecting in and keep coming back week by week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
