CEP SEASON FOUR EP: 02 - WITH GUEST MAL FLETCHER
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
In part two, with special guest Mal Fletcher, we discuss the importance of innovation and strategic thinking for churches. We explore topics such as the role of technology, the metaverse, and the future of preaching. Mal emphasises the need for curiosity, engagement with new technologies, and the power of preaching.
He also encourages churches to be predictably surprising and to focus on bringing the cyber tribe into the real community. The conversation highlights the value of being future-friendly and avoiding paranoia or escapism. We discuss the challenges posed by cultural opposition and regulatory issues, urging proactive engagement and a love-based approach. The podcast concludes with a reminder that innovation in the church goes beyond creative worship styles to solving practical problems in innovative ways.
We hope you enjoy
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
David Mckeown 0:00
Hey, welcome to the church explained podcast, our conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church.
Mal Fletcher 0:08
This is not an issue that, you know. It's not going away and it's not geographically focused. It's a global issue. And, and the Church at a time when it's going through so much upheaval in some areas, and there's so much, I would say filtering of the Church going on to some degree. There's a need for us to get more certainty on some of the peripheral issues, things that maybe we're not thinking about every day, but which are increasingly moving towards the centre of the social conversation.
David Mckeown 0:43
Yeah, I love that. And just thinking of the Church for a moment, obviously, lots of leaders here, listen to this. They're thinking about their Church or thinking about their time or their city. What do you think of this thing that will really help churches grow? If people were to ask you that question, you know, what, if they really want to grow their Church, influence the city influence where they live? What do you think are the key factors at the minute, what should they be focusing on?
Mal Fletcher 1:14
Oh, that's we could do a podcast is done that one, that's huge. And I've done a lot of Yeah. On that subject, but I think, in fact, I wrote a book a few years ago called The Church of 2020, which was all about, it was written a decade before so 2010. And I've written articles since on the Church of 2030 2040. Because it is important that we are strategic in our mindset. The Scripture says in the fullness of time, Christ came. And that fullness of time is a picture in the Greek language of an hourglass being tipped. When that when the sand has dribbled through, and that thing is finished, then you tip it over. that tipping point, is what the scripture is calling the fullness of time. And God essentially allowed millennia to go by before the fulfilment of a promise he made in Genesis 315. It wasn't fulfilled in Genesis 316. It had to wait until John 360. Yeah, so he's a very strategic person, he's thinking and planning at specific times, this will happen, this will happen. And then here, in the fullness of time, Christ is revealed. So we need to be strategic, we need to not just have vision, my generation, boomers were really good at Vision. Very good at vision. But that's just the start of leadership leadership is it is articulating a vision, not just for the Church, but for the city. It's also about strategy on the back of the vision to take us there. And I think without strategy, vision is just wishful thinking. It's just When you wish upon a star, you've got to have something concrete and measurable to say, if we want to be there in five years, where will we be after two? You know, so I think being strategic is an important part of forward friendly thinking, future friendly thinking, by the way, you can't future proof your life or your Church, but you can be future friendly, as much as possible. Bad things will happen, stuff will go on things will will make it tough at times to stick to the path. But we stay friendly to the future.
David Mckeown 3:27
Yeah. And what should we avoid, like every leader is listening, or thinking of all the things that are out there that they can get involved in? Whether it's, you know, embracing AI, or technologies or other stuff. What do you think leaders should be avoiding, rather than focusing on?
Mal Fletcher 3:51
I think we should avoid. And this applies also to another thing that I believe very strongly will be an issue for the Church in the next 10 years, is, and I said this 10 years ago, but it's much more evident today. There's a combination of cultural bias against religion and in some areas, particularly Christianity, combined with in some areas growing regulation, or systemic opposition to religion. That's become more and more true in the age of, of so called workers and critical theory. We need to be very careful in the face of that and things like technological change, that we don't become paranoid. You cannot engage a culture which you've already unilaterally declared your enemy. Jesus said, Love your enemies. That's for a reason. You can't engage an enemy you're not prepared or you can't change an enemy, you're not prepared to engage. You know, so, as a Church we need to avoid at all costs, paranoia, about the world we live in. This attitude of Ask them them in a non biblical way. There is a biblical version of us and them and the New Testament. But a non biblical version is where we don't engage. We no longer salt and light because we're not in contact with the culture. So we need to avoid, I think this paranoia and using our eschatology as escapism. I don't find anywhere in the parables of Jesus relating to the second gumming any suggestion that we should hide under the bed and wait for him to return. Every parable Jesus told that I can find Jesus told about the His Second Coming, was about managing present resources to produce a future result. Which is why I think when Martin Luther famously was asked, What would you do if someone said Jesus was coming back tonight? He said, I'd plant a tree. Yeah, it's keeping that long term focus, because we don't know when he'll return, keeping that long term focus is important. You know. So avoiding paranoia is not as true in the area of, of social opposition, cultural opposition, and even regulatory opposition to the Church. Being proactive as much as we possibly can to bring about change is part of that. But it's also important when it comes to issues relating to tech.
David Mckeown 6:24
Definitely. So do you think, then that's high, we as the Church then should, I guess, be at the forefront? Because one of the things I've been thinking through as often the churches are almost on the backfoot, when it comes to technology, or innovation? I'm trying to get the question, and how do we help leaders to really embrace was there rather than embrace, almost embrace, embracing the positives of the culture rather than be frightened of them? But also this idea of like, Hi, can we as the Church, what sort of mindset do we need that makes sure that we're at the forefront of what's happening in order to bring change rather than, hey, the Church is just catching up 10 years later?
Mal Fletcher 7:14
Yeah, that, again, is a big question. You ask good questions. I think the first thing comes back to what I said before showing curiosity. Another thing that it was Joel used to say, which I love, we were very good friends at one point. And he said that sometimes the Christian is like the person who turns up at a conversation about nuclear physics, and says, Do you like bananas? There's no engagement with the subject at hand. There's no sense of this might be important to those people. Instead, we come in with our particular, the question that matters to us is not necessarily the question that matters. Brilliant to the people around us. Yeah, I think John was onto something. I think we need to understand the power of curiosity, I think, and here, I like to make this statement. This is something I came to over years of thinking about it all. Evangelism is mission, but not all. Mission is evangelism. And often were, for example, teaching people in our churches, almost to be evangelists in the Ephesians, four sense of the ministry gift, sense of the word, instead of teaching them to bear witness to Jesus, in everything they do. And whatever they do, in doing it as unto the Lord, not unto man. So I think it's important that we so that we engage with curiosity, that we study, the new technologies that come out, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? Where can this best be used in the same way that Christian music pioneers did in the 60s and early 70s, where they said, Look, we know that this music got a different beat. We know that it's chord structures are strange to your ears. But we believe there's something in it that can be sanctified, set apart, and we won't take the whole package, sex, drugs, rock and roll, we will just take the parts that we believe can be sanctified. So that's the same with TIG. And I think the other thing is just to be always trying to be predictably surprising. One of the things that our society should say about the Church is, you will surprise me every time. Yeah, you will go beyond what I was expecting. That's Luke six, isn't it? Invite people to your party who can't invite you back? That's what I'm talking about. Going the extra mile being predictably surprising, not predictably predictable? Yeah, Jesus was very surprising person, sometimes in quite shocking ways. If you were his disciples, you know, it wasn't always beer and Skittles with Jesus was it. It can be quite dangerous to hang around. But if we're speaking the Word and we try to live authentically for Christ in community, then I think we will find we become predictably surprising people to the world around us.
David Mckeown 10:11
Yeah, I like that. And I think it's trying to encourage leaders and churches to stay innovative, gentlemen, to be open. And as you say, you know, I like that word curious to be curious about what's out there. What's the Reinders? You know, what's our response to creation and all the things that are at our disposal? And I've been thinking a little bit about one of them. One of the articles you have on your site around this idea of educators at the metaverse and one of the things you were saying, I think in that article was that you could almost envisage educators using the metaverse more and more to help their students with a learning experience. So it kept me intrigued a little bit in the sense of thinking of that in the education world and people using the metaverse and in order to sort of enhance the learning experience, I guess, I was trying to think where does that fit into the Church? Like high? Can the Church use stuff like that? I know churches, some churches are already using some of that technology. But I was trying to think that many, many churches, or I guess they still have the sort of the traditional approach to what a service looks like, you'll have some music, he'll have some communication from the front, you'll have you know, that's the package. But what is what about the metaverse? And and you know, how should we as churches? Should we should we be thinking about how we may use this technology? Or should we just be getting on with doing things the same old way?
Mal Fletcher 11:55
Well, let's take the metaphor, the example you've used the the Church service, as a way of intellect question, I think. I believe that with anything digital that where the Church is concerned, the ideal is always to encourage cyber tribe to become real tribe. So I had like that I had a letter from an email from a Pastor of a very good Church in the north of England who has since moved. But he wrote to me, he said, you know, 20 years ago, you came to our Church. And you spoke to us as leaders about a potential of this thing called the internet. And he said, and this is a guy that's particularly known for being very creative. He said, I turned to the guy next to me, and I said, What's the internet? He said, I want you to know now that we've just won a secular award national award for a website and a web service that we've set up. I just thought you should know. And I appreciated that. I think the same is true today with things like Metaverse, virtual reality, augmented reality, and so on. We need to begin to understand what makes that medium TIG and again, find out are there ways into that with the kingdom of God? Are there ways that we can use that? Because God would not allow this technology had it not been capable of being used in some positive way for the benefit, again, not just at the Church, but of humanity, and humanity through the Church in some instances. So I think we've got it. We saw during the pandemic, a board member of mine, who again, is a Pastor of a large network of churches said, The pandemics done your work for you, hasn't it? I said, What do you mean? He said, You've been banging on about the internet all these years, and now we're actually doing it. We're actually having services online and be very creative with it. And he was right. But we need to take the same approach now with these new technologies. And as we do it, we keep the focus on trying to get the cyber tribe to become eventually a real tribe. So we have special services just for the cyber audience. We don't just stream our Sunday services, that's not good enough. We have as well as that. In addition to then, we have services that are tailor made, filmed just for the 20 Minute online version of Church, because we might be reaching people there who are not yet ready to come to a physical service anywhere in the world wherever they live. But then we work gradually to bring them from that if they are willing into a physical environment by say, having it you know, saying to them, you've been coming to our service online now for several months, would you be willing to come interested in coming to our roundtable online, where you can ask Any question you like, there'll be a small group. And then having done that a few times we say to them, having done this round table now several times would you be interested in going to a physical round table? And you can ask any question you want on anything where about it, we say, that's a way of just subtly and gently bringing people to a point where they're comfortable, cyber, try becoming real. And not everybody in the cyber audience will eventually end up in physical Church. That doesn't matter. You don't have to be in Church to be a Christian. If you're going to obey Christ in all of his ways, yes, you want to find some way to go. For sake not the assembling of yourselves together. That's important to us. But we have to realise it's not a primary issue when it comes to a person's salvation. And in saying that, we're still trying to get cyber to become real. So that would apply with Metaverse just as it applied with the Internet. And the other thing we have to watch with the metaverse is the capacity for avatars. Because people are represented by avatars in the virtual space, for avatars to be doing rather dark things. We've seen recently studies coming out showing that physical assaults have occurred in the metaverse and even though those assaults are conducted by avatars, virtual beings, quote, unquote, they are driven by human beings. And they represent so that the damage to the victim is just as great because the threat is still a human threat to them. So we have to be very, very careful about that.
David Mckeown 16:39
Yeah, it's a whole thing around ethics. Again, I'm having some against guidelines and binaries for all the stuff that's often missing. Because we're often catching up to the, you know, the technology comes first. And then the guidelines come after. And that's the big chance that it's the gap between the two years network, I guess people exploit you misuse, the stuff that's out there, that give me thinking a little bit a mile around the sort of traditional preaching method. And thinking of like all the technologies coming through, whether it's cyber Metaverse, you know, what do you think you'll ever kommst at a stage in life where the sort of stage preaching disappears, you know, the traditional way that pastors will grow up and communicate, do you think that will disappear at some point in the future?
Mal Fletcher 17:32
Well, to be honest with you speaking longer term, the stage itself might disappear, in some instances, because we see growing trends at the moment in studies don't wait for people to move away from the theatrics of Church, which I have no problem with, because the youth movement I spoke earlier was based on very big crowds coming together crowds of young people. And a crowd is important, because it's a showcase of just how strong the Church is, you know. But I think that preaching will never, we have to define, first of all, the word preaching in the New Testament, of course, is simply proclamation most often in the Greek. So it's all about proclamation not preaching in the way we think of a pulpit and a stage presence and all of that. It's proclamation of the gospel, usually in a public setting. Okay, well, Matt in in the New Testament, so first of all, we have to be clear on that preaching mode and proclamation won't end, the type of preaching we do in public might take different forms. I can't see disappearing, because I think the most effective way for a group of people to be taught the gospel is through a human being standing up and conveying it in a way that they find meaningful and helpful. And which provokes questions which they then want to seek answers to. So that's, that's, that's important to say that, but I think we can use technologies to help us enhance in the same way that. Yeah, in the same way that we use television, to bring people into contact with the gospel. Mind you, I think there are too many preachers on TV, I don't think I think it's a good, I think it's good for some people to see preaching because God wants people saved. But I don't think it's the best use of the medium. Because television is not great. As a teaching medium. With a person standing before a camera talking. It's great at documentary, it's great at involvement engagement, you know, so we need to be more creative in how we use technology, while still proclaiming the gospel.
David Mckeown 19:43
Yeah, very good. It's good just to get that out there because it may be Church leaders are thinking, Well, I'm going to have to stop doing this. And I'm going to have to focus all my attention on the technology. So it's good for I think Church leaders just to be aware that there's room I guess, in the future for both and as you describe what's the proclamation that's important. Not, not high, it's done. But I guess the message itself, which is key, that proclamation can happen in many, many different forms and styles and places, I guess, not just on a traditional stage that we're so used to today, I've been thinking a little bit more, again, just Orion, some of the stuff you're involved in, you know, as a company trying to be innovative, future focused, again, just trying to think of the Church like I know we get better. There's I know, you've mentioned earlier being curious, is there anything else as leaders are listening? How else can they get better being innovative and thinking of the future and being strategic? What advice would you give leaders today?
Mal Fletcher 20:49
Well, there's some great resources on our website, 2030 plus.com, that would help with them. Also, we have, I think, six social media streams that are updated, almost always daily. And although that's not directed solely at Church leaders, it's it's directed at issues and people's response to them, particularly future focused issues. But innovation is very much at the core of who we are at 2030 Plus, and we define innovation as more than creativity, it's the application of creativity to solve practical or pragmatic or measurable problems. So I say to Church, people, sometimes when you came to Church, you see on the stage here, music, you see media, you see, colour and light, that's, that's the arts of their best, that's creativity, but what you're sitting on, is innovation. And I think that's important to say that because sometimes we think of churches being innovative, just in their styles of worship. If the Church solves practical problems in very creative ways, it's gonna get a hearing, it will get a hearing at the top of society, because what's a politician, therefore, if they're doing the job properly, they're there for solving problems for the constituents. If we can learn to solve problem Joseph did that was Pharaoh, he had a good idea to match his revelation. And the Bible says, The idea seemed good to hear I was reading it again early early this morning. And so if our world is not open to the revelation, it might be a revelation, open to the innovation, the practical solutions to problems and start saying, Well, tell us where you got that from? Why are you like that? Why do you do that? So I think that's a place to start the attitude, the understanding what innovation is, we're also about to launch a webinar, it's just been post produced, it's two parts. And it's an hour in total. It's called Innovation under pressure. And it's partly designed with Church leaders in mind, because we are under pressure today to find solutions to problems. It's skills based. These sessions are skills based. So it's very practical. And it comes out of 40 years of study and 40 years of speaking around the world about these issues. And I hope that we get some Church leaders looking at those, as well as Church and AI looking into those webinars. They'll go up in the next week online. But boy, there's so much I could say on that. I really appreciate the questions you're asking. Yeah.
David Mckeown 23:23
Hey, well, it's been fantastic to have you with us on the show. I've got a couple of more question. I guess one more question. And then a few quickfire questions. Would that be alright? Yeah, I'll play with that. Yes, they help our audience today. Okay. So just want to Ryan, I guess, just thinking of you as the leader. It's always interesting just to see how leaders keep themselves sharp or at the cutting edge, whatever, whatever language we want to practice that and what do you do personally,
Mal Fletcher 23:53
there's probably a lot of things that I think that one of the things I'm very strong on with myself, I can be if you're an if you're an analytical person, by nature and creative, you can tend to be quite self critical. And I, I have to discipline that, but I tried to, to focus on this idea of my maintaining risk. What I mean by that is engaging with things that do make me a little scared. I remember years ago, a friend of mine said, If I don't get out of bed in the morning, and feel a little bit scared, I'm probably not in the will of God. And I thought that was cool. I thought that was a great insight. Put in a nice way like that. Yeah, there is something scary. And I remember in my teenage years, saying that really resonated with me. I can't remember where I read it or heard it, but it stays with me to this day. Think about this. The greatest witness for God is a life that cannot be explained unless there is a God So people ought to be able to look at us, the greatest witness for God is a life that cannot be explained unless there is a God. People should look at us and say, Yeah, I don't understand you. Either you're completely crazy, or there's something driving you here. And something that works. It's driving you here. Yeah, I think that I tried to put I remember the first time I was ever on BBC Breakfast, been on numerous times, and other most of the regional stations, I've done something for, it's been wonderful. And I'm very grateful. I never take it lightly. But I remember the first time you know, I've been speaking for 35 years in public doing media for 30 years. But this was the BBC and the advert, Australian antibody, and the BBC is like the pinnacle. And I remember being very tense, very, not nervous, but tense, very tense. I did my homework, I thought I knew what I was talking about. And we had a great time. And I felt so relieved afterwards. But putting myself in that position. I didn't it didn't come about by accident, certain things happened to lead up to it. Putting yourself in a position where if God doesn't turn up, you're in a lot of trouble. It's not that you haven't done your homework. It's not that you're not well prepared. But there's still that sense of I need you got today, I need your Lord, you got to watch my back today. We need to keep doing that throughout our lives to keep taking not as necessarily a bigger risk as that but risks as leaders so that we're on the edge a bit boring, or bored leaders are boring leaders. One of the I'll tell you this day is very important. One of the most underrated qualities of a good leader is mistake. Not aloofness, that's a different animal. Mistake means that no matter how close people get to you, they always have this sense. There's something about you. I don't yet know. I don't yet. Like it's a good thing I can sense that there's something in you that I want. I don't quite know what it is, but it's there. And we only achieved that by being constantly curious ourselves and putting ourselves in situations we'd not want normally wouldn't be in. I even say to pastors. Now, why don't you once a month, or more often if you choose, take a half a day, go and sit in a museum, or an art gallery, or at the theatre or some way that is outside of your normal context. Just for the sheer experience of being challenged in fresh, new ways. And I had a Pastor say to me in Britain not long ago that he's been doing that now for some time, he said, You have no idea what a difference is made to me. It may mean nothing to my people, but to me, it's changed me and the way that I the way that I approach my ministry, the way that I approach life. It's not so much what you're looking at it in the museum, it's the fact that you're there. And you're exposing yourself to something that is not what we're talking about immoral things. We're talking about just experiences of life. Yeah. So I try to work on that. It's one of the things that I hope keeps me fresh reading does to do a lot of reading and I try to read outside of my sphere of interest and influence. So yes, I do a lot of reading on things like aI but a lot of other things too. Because all truth to CS Lewis rightly said is God's truth. And the more I learn, the more curious I become, and the more curious I become, the more curiosity inspiring, I become, at least that that's in theory, I hope it's true in practice.
David Mckeown 29:00
I love that and I guess just encourage leaders with this, I guess it's reoccurring idea that you've brought out just to stay curious, and to be curious and to take those risks. And, and I love the sort of big picture stuff that you're bringing out there, this idea that the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. Therefore we we need to make sure that we're engaging with all the stuff even as a leader, there's lots of items that often leaders don't engage in. And we're not talking about moral issues or anything but a lot of stuff that's outside their sphere of influence or out of their normal routine of stuff that you can just put yourself somewhere like that can actually do wonders, I think for the soul and for the mind. So maybe that's an encouragement for leaders today just to do something different. Take a little bit of a risk. You know, don't do the same old, same old but actually challenge yourself to to enjoy the experiences that are out there or the experiences of life that God has given to so I think there's something amazing in there. So, hey, thanks for sharing a little bit about your personal journey there a little bit of your personal insights and you know what you do. I think that'll help leaders today. molars, they hear this, just a couple of them of these quickfire questions are quickfire because I asked them quickly and you can answer them quickly. And that'll help us so just thinking then of your favourite podcast, what is your favourite podcast and why?
Mal Fletcher 30:30
I didn't have one. I listened to lots of I've listened to I don't listen to too many. But I don't I couldn't honestly say that I have a favourite. I did one recently that I took partly one recently that I liked, which was called click talking Jesus with the Evangelical Alliance. And it was based on a survey. Yes, yeah. National Survey. Looking at what happens in five years, if the survey is correct. And it was fascinating. No, I don't really have a favourite. Sorry.
David Mckeown 31:03
Okay. Well, maybe this get to become your favourite after. You never know that the church explained podcast is there for for leaders and all sorts of people. Hey, and just tell us maybe a couple of books that you've read recently. What are your top two favourite books that you want to share with leaders today?
Mal Fletcher 31:21
Oh, that's very difficult to answer because there's so many books across a wide range recently. I would cite it from a Christian point of view, I would say Paul, a biography by Tom Wright, has become a favourite for me. And I've recommended it for many people. Also his New Testament, which I didn't know existed until not too long ago. I thought it was very insightful. There are books on I'm just trying to remember titles. It's always difficult. There are books on AI that are worth reading. There's a book on the ethics of AI published by Oxford University, the title of which escapes me at the moment. Oh, goodness, that's a difficult question. I'd have to have them sitting in front of me because there's, there's a stack of about seven books. And whilst I remember what's in them, I don't always remember the titles in the moment. Over the years though, books that have meant a lot to me have been, well, Mia Christianity stands supreme, above all 19 I read it at 19. I read Malcolm Muggeridge is Jesus rediscovered I think it was or no Jesus, the man who lives as well. When I read first, at 19, I was a student changed my whole perception of what Christianity might be could be coming from a fairly sheltered Christian background. That was a great book. So many, how now shall we live which was chuck chuck Carlson's book, quite a sentimental Okay, yeah, no. Chuck Colson, former Nixon henchmen. It was a book about engagement with culture. And quite, I think, a game shifter in the United States in that regard. And I know, there's so many forgive me.
David Mckeown 33:16
Yeah. Well, well, you've got a few the given amount. And even though he's a whole
Mal Fletcher 33:20
step behind me, for those who are watching, there's a whole Yeah,
David Mckeown 33:25
I can. I can say if people really want to know whether they could read those. And maybe just the last question for today, before we wrap up is just to think through who's one of the people who's inspired you the most, let me know that die in just a little bit. Let's say in the last five years, maybe that'll help just to narrow down he's inspired you the most in the last five years.
Mal Fletcher 33:49
Very hard that even in five years. I mean, I'd been privileged over the years to know and be friend. For example, in the Christian world alone, people like Reinhard Bonnke, and TL Evans, people that have tail Osborn, people who have left the permanent mark, in history of Christianity have been friends and I'm, I don't take that lightly. I have discovered that the more successful people are truly successful in scriptural sense of that word. The more humble they are and the more accessible they become. In the last five years, it that's difficult some there are some like Tim Keller that have had an impact from a distance. Tom writes, We corresponded but not met. Yeah, I, I didn't read that part of the brief. So it didn't if that was in the brief you gave me Yeah, I didn't come prepared with any quick fire answer to that.
David Mckeown 34:56
Well, that's fine. That's fine. At least you've given And one or two people, more or less been so good to have you on the show with us today, we know that some of the stuff you've shared is really going to be helpful for listeners as they think about the future as they think of technology or AI or ethics. It's good for them to be thinking through some of these big subjects and how they can be more strategic as they look to proclaim the gospel in their setting. So first of all, I want to say thank you for for joining us today on the church explained podcast. War Al's can people find you if they want to connect with you, I know you've got the website 23 plus.com Is that correct?
Mal Fletcher 35:37
2032 030 followed by the wall like us 2030 plus.com. But they can also get us on social media. If you go to my name now ma l not el ma L. Fletcher. At in Twitter, Instagram threads, tick tock youtube, it's every day something is there often multiple instances of stuff.
David Mckeown 36:11
So, so people can connect with you through all those different social media platforms as well. Great. And of course, if people want to get on to some of your webinars, they can find that info on your website as well. We would encourage leaders to do that that would be maybe a great help to them, as they're thinking through some of these big ideas. Well, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for being on the church explained podcast and we want to say to all our audience today, that for them to you know Rate, Subscribe wherever they listen to this content, just to let people know that we're here and encourage them to keep connecting in and keep coming back week by week. One
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