CEP SEASON THREE EP: 02 - WITH LUCY PEPPIATT
By Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger
The Church Explained podcast is a conversation to help grow your leadership, develop your team and build your Church. Your hosts will be Dave Mckeown and Nathan Benger. During each show, we discuss leadership with key team players from IKON Church and other guests.
Welcome to Season 3, Episode: 02 of the Church Explained Podcast with guest Lucy Peppiatt
A short bio about Lucy
Lucy is the Principal of WTC, a Hub-based theological college in the UK. She’s a systematic theologian who teaches courses in Christian doctrine and spiritual formation. She’s authored several books on topics such as discipleship, 1 Corinthians, women in the Bible, and humanity made in the image of God. She and her husband, Nick Crawley, live in Bristol, where they attend Crossnet Church, a church they planted 18 years ago.
In part one, we explore with Lucy how we can improve discipleship within our churches and how we need to focus on CPD as leaders.
We hope you enjoy it.
SHOW NOTES
FULL TRANSCRIPT
CREATED BY AI - SO NOT 100% accurate.
David Mckeown 0:00
Welcome to the church explained podcast a conversation to grow your leadership and build your Church. Today we're excited. We've got a brand new guest. She's never been with us before, Nathan. No, no. And she's on the show with us. Lucy pappy, what a great name that is.
Nathan Benger 0:17
Yes. And just a little bit about Lucy to start the show. Lucy is the principal of WT see a hub based Theological College here in the UK. She's a systematic theologian and teaches courses in Christian doctrine and in spiritual formation. She has authored a number of books on topics such as discipleship, one Corinthians, women in the Bible, and humanity made in the image of God, she and her husband, Nick Crawley live in Bristol, where they attend cross neck Church, a Church they planted 18 years ago. So Lucy, it's great to have you with us.
Lucy Peppiatt 0:51
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
David Mckeown 0:54
Yeah, we're so excited to start and hear from you this morning and share with our listeners some of your insights. And just find out a little bit about you as a person as well. So we always love to kick off the show, Lucy just to find out a little bit about people's stories. So I wonder if you could just share with our listeners, our audience, maybe something about your faith story, and also your ministry journey? Because it's different for everyone. And when we're sharing with leaders, it's just good to have a little bit of insight on that as well.
Lucy Peppiatt 1:22
Huh? Yeah, no, that's great. I was brought up in a Christian home. But my parents weren't evangelicals. So they were Anglican Christians, and both had kind of quite gentle faith. So I would say my dad was quite private. My mom was more open, and more kind of willing to pray for us and read us the Bible. But it took me a while till I was about 23, to come to my own personal faith. And I had a few years where I didn't really want much to do with Christians. But God has a way of kind of, you know, finding you, making sure that you won't run away. And I met actually met some wonderful Christians. After I left university, I was working with the homeless in a Catholic charity, and they deeply impressed me and then I ran into some brilliant charismatic Christians through my cousin's family. And, and that really kind of made a big impression on me. And when I was nearly 24, I gave my life to Jesus, and never looked back. So that was my that's my faith journey. Right.
David Mckeown 2:42
And another little bit about your your ministry journey, because I think just chatting with you offline as well. You've had different things you've been doing in ministry and your process to that. I wonder if you could share with our listeners about that. Lucy today?
Lucy Peppiatt 2:58
Yeah, well, when I made a commitment to, to Jesus, I then joined a Church. And my husband was actually the curator of that Church. So I got to know him. And quite quickly, really, we were we were married. And then so I found myself my whole life changed in in the space of about a year from having no involvement with Church or anything kind of overtly Christian, to suddenly being a curious wife in the Church of England. So that was quite disorientating, to be honest, obviously lovely to be next life, but you know. And so then I I, quite quickly after we were married, I felt God calling me to a preaching ministry. And then I so I trained in the Church of England, they have a specific preachers training, called the lay readers training in London. I did that. And then just really kind of enjoyed working with Nick in our churches, we had four children. So I did a lot of the kind of classic, you know, clergy wives things and, but at the same time, I also lead Bible studies, I lead a congregation in our Church in Zimbabwe. Time really loved leading, I loved preaching, I loved teaching and doing Bible studies, and then really off the back of that, that pulled me into academics because I, I felt like I I would be teaching and I think actually, I don't think I know enough really to be to you know, and I was very struck that I'd be teaching people twice my age. So I then I started studying alongside having my kids and working with Nick in our churches, and really found over the years that that I am an Academic which I hadn't realised back then. And so I ended up doing a degree in theology. My first degree was English, and then a master's in systematic theology and then a PhD. And now I run a college and write books, which is just a great delight for me as well as being immersed in our churches. And I still preach quite a bit, you know, which I love. Wow,
David Mckeown 5:20
exciting stuff that a lot lots taking place there for you, Lucy. And of course, we always like to just ask the difficult question, which is, what what do you do for fun? Or maybe that maybe that is your fun? Maybe that's it? Maybe there's something else.
Lucy Peppiatt 5:37
I am one of those sad people who that my fun time is reading theology. Yeah. I mean, that's genuine. I take theology on holiday, because I don't have enough time in my job, you know, to do all those things. But I know what you mean. I love food. So and I love cooking. And I love eating with people. So either cooking a meal and eating with friends and family, I love being with my kids and, and their wives. So we have four sons and four daughters in law. So that is a lot of fun. And or going out for dinner, I really enjoy that as well. And yeah, anything around kind of food. Laughter talking with people about things that matter. I don't like superficial relationships. I like to really get to know people and talk at deep levels. And so all those things as well as walking my dog. I really liked that too.
David Mckeown 6:40
Nice, nice and out of interest. And what type of dog do you have?
Lucy Peppiatt 6:44
I have a little cross between a Border Terrier and a Jack Russell. So I call him a brothel.
David Mckeown 6:54
The only reason I'm asking is I've just got a new dog. And it's been. Yeah, I got a German Shorthaired Pointer. So yeah, lots of energy. So I'm very, very busy for the last while trying to train this puppy. So I keep asking, when people say I've got a dog, I'm looking for all the wisdom they have. To me.
Lucy Peppiatt 7:19
I'm not sure we're very good at training our dog but but point is a beautiful, must be lovely.
Nathan Benger 7:27
Well back onto the podcast for dog training. Who knows? church explained podcast for dog trainer. Lucy, why don't you just? Yeah, why don't you just explore like the top ideas that you've really enjoyed working on as a theologian.
Lucy Peppiatt 7:51
i There are so many ideas that really catch my imagination. And this is what's so fun about being a theologian is that you're always dealing with big ideas, you know big ideas about God and who he is, and big ideas about how God sees us as human beings and how he relates to the world and interacts with the world. But I would say I go back over and over to the topic that I actually did for my PhD, which is the whole question of how Christ relates to the Spirit. So how do we understand Jesus? Who is fully divine as also a spirit filled man? And what are the kind of implications of that for us? How do we understand the incarnation and the the mystery of the incarnation, but also the hope of the Incarnation for what it means for humanity, that God in the sun takes up humanity into himself? And then is this person who is also filled with the Holy Spirit? And that's his connection to us, you know? So, to the idea of God connecting to us through Jesus in the Incarnation, I find that endlessly fascinating, I could talk about it loads, and I love teaching on it. And then, I also did, I did some work in one Corinthians 11, two to 16. So very different, really, work was to work out to try and work out what I thought Paul was saying in one Corinthians 11 to 16, about the headcoverings passage. And that took me into a whole different world of biblical scholarship. But it also is theological, because obviously, people extract out of that passage like deep theological truths, and then that that has a massive impact on women. So that fascinated me for many years, and I've I've written on that and given a possible explanation. I think that makes better sense of that passage.
Nathan Benger 9:59
Wow. Amazing. And obviously we mentioned you're the principal of WT see, wonder lake as principal of WT see, what do you enjoy the most out of that role?
Lucy Peppiatt 10:14
That's, that is a good question. I sometimes think I really love all of my job. Because I kind of struggle to find things that I don't like, apart from perhaps when I'm swamped by emails, you know, I think all of us, sometimes they're like, oh, emails, they go on forever. But what do I love, I love leading something. I love having to go to God for vision and strategy, and trying to look ahead, and partly thinking in a business sense, you know, so thinking through the concrete particulars of what we're dealing with, and how that might work, and how we build a business, but also trying to think and move prophetically in and thinking, Well, what is God doing in my college? And where would he like us to go? And what would he like us to do? Until I love that I love working in a in a college that isn't a Church, but has, you know, I work with Christians, and we have an amazing team that I love leading a team. I love the relational aspects of that. And obviously, I love teaching. I mean, I'd kind of take that as read, but the more sort of leadership side of my role. Yeah, like I said, I struggled to find something I don't really enjoy about my job to be honest. I'm very fortunate, very privileged.
Nathan Benger 11:58
Yeah, that's an amazing place. I wonder if you just just touch on a little bit, because I think in Church, well, we do face this tension of you were talking about business and then also like leaning into the prophetic. I wonder if you just touch on maybe how you do that? Or what that looks like for you?
Lucy Peppiatt 12:17
Yeah, I think it started for me, because I was taken into WCC, I was employed by the Board of Trustees really, as a kind of stop gap, and someone to help out in a time of crisis. And I had very well, I had no, no experience of running a business or even leading something in that sense. And so I was, I was thrown, I felt on to God for that, you know, I, I actually relied quite heavily on my father at that time, my father was had led a law firm, and he was a great leader. And I had a very clear thinker who was a lawyer. So he knew a lot about the sort of nuts and bolts of leading stuff and working with a board and you know, how to make decisions. And so I leaned on him for that. And then I kind of leaned on God, for decisions and, and wisdom and, and what I thought I should do next, and, and I felt God helping me, I would feel like I kind of would receive some kind of instruction or sense of what I should do, as the as I would act on, you know, my father's good advice. And then God's good advice or, or direction, it sort of seemed to work out. And so I then began to, to lead more overtly, in that sense of just sharing things with my team of this is what I think, you know, I would never go into somewhere and say, Well, I think God's told me this or that I that that's a terrible way of leading, but I think it is permissible to come to a team if you know and say, I've been praying, and I wonder whether this might be a good strategy or a good thing. And then you weigh in, test it together, you know, so and as we grew as a team, and as we, as we learned, learned, perhaps to discern things and and waiting that both circumstantially like, is this an idiotic idea or might it you know, might there be ways in which it could work out? I think we learned to bring together the prophetic and the prayerful with the practical way. And that was really fun. And you know, like I said, it's not that we haven't made we've made mistakes and we've, we've gone down blind alleys and done stuff that hasn't worked out but but many of the things have worked And the overall picture is that we've seen the Lord bless what we do, and it's grown and thrived. And that's just a delight.
David Mckeown 15:09
It's amazing. It's great. I'd like I wonder if I could just pick up on one of the things you did say there, Lucy, which I think is true, in the sense of when leaders do go and say, you know, this says the Lord, we use the word language. It can't be a danger. But I guess there's probably there could be some leaders out there who who use that type of language. I wonder, could we just explore that just for a moment or two? Before we get into a few more questions? Could you just explained a little bit further on? What What are the dangers in that that you would see?
Lucy Peppiatt 15:43
I think a personal thing for me is that I am very wary of controlling leadership. And I don't hold to it as a model. I don't I don't see the need for it. I think if one is in a leader that has got authority with you, then you that will speak for itself. I so I don't think in that sense, leaders should need to command loyalty, for instance, that should be something that we earn, because we ourselves are loyal to the people that we're serving. And then I think it becomes reciprocal. So I'm nervous of controlling leaders, I think that it opens up a really damaging potential for abuse and manipulation. And I think that once we start to appropriate to ourselves, God's voice, you know, once we align ourselves and say, Well, I have the voice of God, and I'm the leader and I have the authority, you give people no room to push back or to say no, because if they say no to you, the implication is they're saying no to God, which I mean, that's ridiculous. You know, we don't believe in the Divine Right of leaders. Well, I don't think we should. And leaders are much healthier themselves, if they have people who will check them and and help them to make decisions and organisations massively more healthy, if they have multiple voices, joining together to make decisions and so. So it's not in my opinion, it's not just unnecessary for leaders to say, God told me so we're doing this, but it's actually potentially dangerous. And so I would, I would not use it as a practice. Yeah,
Nathan Benger 17:55
amazing. I guess, just staying on the topic of Church leadership as well. And Lincoln, the two in terms of like biblical theology, how would you suggest that Church leaders can help their faith communities deepen their biblical theology?
Lucy Peppiatt 18:13
Oh, I think that's such an important question. And it's something that's very much needed. I think you guys agree, I know, you agree with me. It's very much needed in in the charismatic Church, where we haven't really invested a lot in our biblical knowledge and our love of Scripture. And so I see a number of different possibilities and and options for us. The first is I think that leaders should invest in their own education and training and knowledge base, you know, and there's lots of opportunities, lots of places to go. And obviously, WT see is one of them. And I would love to have anyone at WT see I feel like we were good at feeding leaders as well as people, anyone in the Church. I think that if people already have qualifications, I think that we could we could do do better perhaps that what in the world would be called continuing professional development but you know, joining groups together, perhaps presenting papers to each other not in a kind of really formal sense but oh, I'm thinking I'm I know actually at ground level you guys are doing this. So I think that's brilliant. A brilliant idea of you know, getting pastors together someone giving a paper or getting a guest person in and stimulating thought, passing books around. And then it would there are various kinds of ways I think of just keeping the lid level of teaching in our churches. So sermons sermons are brilliant. And I think it's important that they're not, you know that they're not in enormously long and complex teaching moments. Because they're there, in a sense, they serve a different purpose, but perhaps complementing our sermon series with another in an America they call it Sunday school, don't they? It's a bit confusing for us, because that's not the kids Church. But but having, you know, having as a Sunday School, where we have the sermon series, which is, you know, sermons of about 25 to 30 minutes. And then we have a Sunday school where we can just encourage a deeper dive into things and, you know, maybe something like that.
David Mckeown 20:48
Sounds good. I think it's create new spaces is that within our settings, where we can explore a bit further, a bit deeper, so maybe they hear the sermon on Sunday, but it's what's after that, I guess, and trendy encourage Church leaders to think of that as well. Because, like, there's really, there is only so much you can say on a Sunday, thinking of the wider context of who's coming into your Church. So it's trying to then think, Okay, well, how are we now going to play this? Or teach theology, and not be afraid to teach theology? I think that's the important thing, not to be afraid to teach theology within our Church settings as well. I think, Alicia, we know you've written a number of books, and one of those is around discipleship. And of course, that's, that's a real hot topic, still at the minute, I think in the UK, and maybe even across the world at the minute. Thinking of the western Church setting, what do you think we've gone wrong? Regarding discipleship?
Lucy Peppiatt 21:49
I wonder, when I wrote The disciple I, I was thinking, I wonder whether have we gone wrong? Or have we is it just going to be always a challenge for the Church? You know? Because in the past, I mean, many people in uncharted in the hundreds of years past, many people in the Church wouldn't have been literate, or, you know, with so even the idea that we have now of kind of having your quiet time and your prayer time, and you're, you know, I wonder how much that actually featured in, you know, the 13th century, you know, what I mean? So, I, I sort of think discipleship is a challenge for every generation. And I think perhaps I'd probably be better just speaking about the charismatic Church, because that's the one I know, I can't really speak about the others particularly. But I think for us, it's been around that the engagement with the Scriptures, and a kind of depth of knowing God, knowing the nature of God, and not relying on just our experience, to underpin all of our relationship with God. And so sort of giving ourselves more robust foundations. And also, I think, trying to undermine a bit, the idea that being a Christian is all about me and Jesus, and that actually, we do join a family and we we have brothers and sisters, whether we love them or not, they're our brothers and sisters. And we have a responsibility to them, in the way that we behave and live. And, you know, I think we so individualism is, is made discipleship, actually more difficult for us. And then the charismatic emphasis on emotion and feeling, rather than on looking at all the different aspects that underpin our faith, like knowledge and scripture, knowledge, and, and, and prayer and corporate prayer, and going to Church, you know, and all those kinds of things and baptism. So I actually wrote with a colleague and ex colleague, a little course, that discipleship course, which we wrote together a number of years ago, and that's also on sale on Amazon, which I think is a it's a good foundation course. It's kind of designed as like a post alpha, just to encourage people to look at some of the big theological themes that underpin who we become as new people in Christ. And then some of the practical things we can do to strengthen our walk with Jesus.
David Mckeown 24:49
I get so you've you've highlighted a couple of things there. Lucy, we're, I guess, churches or leaders could improve discipleship within their settings. Two things you mentioned are one is a line, you know, stepping away from individualistic Christianity and the sense of it's to do with the community. That's one of the things you mentioned, and cycling around having a more robust view on faith and using the scriptures to help us rather than just relying on feelings. Yeah. Is there anything else you think you could we could be thinking off as Church leaders to help us improve discipleship at the minute?
Lucy Peppiatt 25:26
I think probably, then, the final thing I would say, would be relationship and mentoring, you know, so it's time intensive, building strong relationships with people. And one of the things that Nick and I have done for the last 18 years is only had a small Church. And that's had its own challenges. And, you know, in many ways, I think it wasn't particularly what we were expecting when we planted a Church 18 years ago, but it definitely has been what God had for us. And it's really, what it's done is it's shaped us as people who relate just to small groups and have learned to invest in people. So my husband, Nick does a lot of this, and has his own Bible website, and, and literally has a discipling ministry, which he and he uses his own Bible resources for that. And they're also available to anyone who who wants them. So I think leaders would do really well, actually, just to have a look at Nick's website, look at the resources he has up there for Bible study. And perhaps we could renew our sense that if we were studying the Bible together and learning how to put those things into practice, that will deepen us as disciples. You know, it will it will have that effect. And I think maybe we've lost confidence in the scriptures for that in some way.
David Mckeown 27:04
Yeah. So lots of stuff that you mentioned your husband's website, do you want to just give us details of that? So our listeners can really just go and explore that? We'll put it in the show notes.
Lucy Peppiatt 27:15
Oh, I'd love to thank you. Yes. So it's, it's www dot Bible for life.co.uk. And it needs coordinate Crawley. And it has. It's an astonishing work, really, that has taken him many, many years. And he's used visiting scholars as well, to compile resources on every single book of the Bible. It's all completely free. And you can access different at different levels. So you can just get an overview of the Bible, you can listen to a pod of a book, you can listen to a podcast, you can see a book in a picture, which is a really lovely feature that a young woman did for him. There's things like maps, there's background stuff, and there's questions for discipleship as well. You know, how we apply these things in our everyday life. So many people use it, they many people who known it, use it, and many people who have never met him go in and use it and use it for their, for their devotional life and teaching. That's a great reason. Well, we'll
David Mckeown 28:22
definitely get that way through the, through the podcast,
Nathan Benger 28:26
definitely. I think you said a phrase and forgive me if I got this wrong, but in the after, like, talking about where we've gone wrong in discipleship and and talking about this individualistic, you know, it's me and Jesus, you said, just this, this phrase, like we have a responsibility to each other. And I wondered if you could just maybe talk into how do we communicate that to a world that is very individualistic, everything's about me and what how do we how do we help people to see that actually, this isn't just you and Jesus, or this isn't just you and your Bible in your quiet time, but you actually have a as you put a responsibility to others.
Lucy Peppiatt 29:12
Yeah, I love your questions. So good, I how because you're asking how questions and it's really good to push the especially theologians on how questions you know, because we're very good at ideas that we have to learn to apply things. I I, for me, I think I see that taking shape in real relationships. You know, I mentioned to you that I don't I'm not very good at superficial relationships. I find them exhausting. And I think the only way we understand the effect we have on others is in Proper real relationships where we share deeply about things. And, you know, I know, a lot of people are in Bible study groups and in home groups and in those kinds of small group things. But my experience of pastoral ministry of over 30 years is that the best groups are groups where people can be completely honest, and authentic, and where they can really deeply share about what's going on in their lives. And I think without even having to teach people, that what you do affects everyone around you, you just see it for good, or ill, you know, you if you're in a small group, so if you just go to Church and go home, you just attend, sit at the back, go home, you won't learn that principle, it works. I mean, people can teach it to you, they can say or Look, it says here in the Bible, but it won't get it won't get into your heart. But if you're in a small group, where if you don't come one week, you're missed. Or if you don't come one week, and you would have prayed for someone in a particular way, or you would have been able to help them more, or you don't come and you don't tell anyone what's going on, then you're always been confronted with the fact that unless you unless you dive into these relationships, and let people shape you, and you shape others, life is quite sort of shallow. And all you're lonely, you know, so either you're desperately lonely, and nobody shares it. Or it's shallow, because you just have these superficial conversations and you go home, and you think, Well, I'm not sure where that left me. So I think it has to be worked out on the ground, as it were. And actually, I think leaders of small group, so the model that we offer, as leaders is very important of, of disclosure, you know, as much as it is possible, with, you know, with the people around us. And obviously, that will be less if we're in a big group, and more if we're in a little group.
David Mckeown 32:15
And maybe there's something to be said about the size of groups as churches are thinking, of course, I think people find themselves, they're easier to be more accountable. If it's a smaller group, maybe a triad or a group of four, I think the bigger the group gets, then that becomes more, I think more more difficult for people to be more vulnerable, and have that authenticity and relationship together. So maybe Church leaders can be thinking through that. How do we structure our groups? What do we do with them? How do we make them work? Yeah, because I think there's something in that just just those two ideas of vulnerability and accountability I think are really important for people to have that I guess genuine relationship together there's a lot there isn't Yeah, there is Yeah, fantastic. As well it's been great to have you wonderful Lucy with us and it's been an amazing conversation and big thanks to everyone who's listened please share rate review subscribe wherever you're listening to this content send
Nathan Benger 33:11
it over to a friend who you know this was the last as well. And don't forget also you can check out IKON dot Church for slash open for loads of free resources. But it's been great to have Lucy with us on the church explained podcast been great to be together and we look forward to next time on the church explained podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
